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private information (by Rose [MA]) Jan 11, 2019 7:49 PM
       private information (by Busy [WI]) Jan 11, 2019 9:29 PM
       private information (by Mike SWMO [MO]) Jan 11, 2019 9:46 PM
       private information (by JB [OR]) Jan 11, 2019 10:02 PM
       private information (by Johnny B. [MA]) Jan 12, 2019 3:06 AM
       private information (by Rose [MA]) Jan 12, 2019 4:43 AM
       private information (by Rose [MA]) Jan 12, 2019 4:43 AM
       private information (by WMH [NC]) Jan 12, 2019 4:59 AM
       private information (by NE [PA]) Jan 12, 2019 5:27 AM
       private information (by nhsailmaker [NH]) Jan 12, 2019 5:27 AM
       private information (by Rose [MA]) Jan 12, 2019 5:33 AM
       private information (by plenty [MO]) Jan 12, 2019 5:44 AM
       private information (by LindaJ [NY]) Jan 12, 2019 5:53 AM
       private information (by Sean [OR]) Jan 12, 2019 8:54 AM
       private information (by Ed [PA]) Jan 12, 2019 11:27 AM
       private information (by Rose [MA]) Jan 12, 2019 11:40 AM
       private information (by Rose [MA]) Jan 12, 2019 11:40 AM
       private information (by Busy [WI]) Jan 12, 2019 2:03 PM
       private information (by Busy [WI]) Jan 12, 2019 3:44 PM
       private information (by Rose [MA]) Jan 12, 2019 7:31 PM
       private information (by Rose [MA]) Jan 12, 2019 7:45 PM
       private information (by Rose [MA]) Jan 12, 2019 7:53 PM
       private information (by Busy [WI]) Jan 12, 2019 7:54 PM
       private information (by JB [OR]) Jan 12, 2019 7:55 PM
       private information (by Still Learning [NH]) Jan 12, 2019 9:03 PM
       private information (by Rose [MA]) Jan 12, 2019 9:10 PM
       private information (by Busy [WI]) Jan 13, 2019 10:10 AM
       private information (by Rose [MA]) Jan 13, 2019 10:33 AM
       private information (by Busy [WI]) Jan 13, 2019 11:06 AM
       private information (by Rose [MA]) Jan 13, 2019 11:17 AM
       private information (by Busy [WI]) Jan 13, 2019 5:47 PM
       private information (by BRAD 20,000 [IN]) Jan 13, 2019 6:06 PM
       private information (by BRAD 20,000 [IN]) Jan 13, 2019 6:11 PM
       private information (by plenty [MO]) Jan 13, 2019 6:13 PM
       private information (by Rose [MA]) Jan 13, 2019 6:34 PM
       private information (by Ray-N-Pa [PA]) Jan 15, 2019 6:13 PM
       private information (by Rose [MA]) Jan 15, 2019 8:10 PM
       private information (by Busy [WI]) Jan 16, 2019 4:19 PM


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private information (by Rose [MA]) Posted on: Jan 11, 2019 7:49 PM
Message:

Dear sir/madam

My town will have third hearing about limiting unrelated people to share one unit

The proposal have

landlord have to report to city tenant’s blood relationship

1 . When applicants apply

Landlord usually ask applicants to fill application form

Which does not ask applicants relationship

What kind of questions landlord could not ask ?

Is it legal to ask applicant relationship ?

2 Is it legal to expose applicant information to other people without applicants agree ?

We need all landlords to help us to deal with this

Thx

--98.110.xxx.xxx




private information (by Busy [WI]) Posted on: Jan 11, 2019 9:29 PM
Message:

Violation of fair housing laws, as far as I can tell. Some cities get away with it for areas with student housing.

It is not legal to ask relationship. (Discriminating based on marital status, familial status.)

Many landlords use HUD guidelines of two persons to a bedroom, one on the couch. I use 70 sq feet per person, I believe I got that number from city codes. I’d have to check my notes to see where I got that for sure. --70.92.xxx.xxx




private information (by Mike SWMO [MO]) Posted on: Jan 11, 2019 9:46 PM
Message:

Not much help here.

First idea. Make a separate sheet of paper (questionnaire). Ask tenants to fill it out to inform the city what relationship each tenant has to each other. Give it to city and let (require) city do a DNA test on everyone to DISPROVE what tenants have said.

Second idea. If city believes in Bible, and the world population came from Adam and Eve then tenants are all related. Let city do genealogy search to DISPROVE

.

Third idea. Tell city to go to h…

--173.187.xxx.xx




private information (by JB [OR]) Posted on: Jan 11, 2019 10:02 PM
Message:

Ignore their overreach until they drag you to court and then let the courts overrule them. --24.20.xxx.xxx




private information (by Johnny B. [MA]) Posted on: Jan 12, 2019 3:06 AM
Message:

Technically this law already exists. In Massachusetts you cannot rent a unit to more than 4 unrelated people. Are they trying to make it more restrictive? I think your building is in Lowell, so my guess is they are trying to cut down on landlords that rent out to students as a form of rooming house. --24.147.xx.xxx




private information (by Rose [MA]) Posted on: Jan 12, 2019 4:43 AM
Message:

Dear sir/madam:

Thanks for your input I will bring your idea to hearing

In mass many city has the similar law for almost 100 years which was applicable to that time situation

Nowdays , no city enforce this law which seems conflict house law .

My second question is whether there is private personal information protection law

For example , if landlord pass Tenant’s information to city , and it cause law suit against landlord from talent ,whether city should be responsible for that

Thx --98.110.xxx.xxx




private information (by Rose [MA]) Posted on: Jan 12, 2019 4:43 AM
Message:

Dear sir/madam:

Thanks for your input I will bring your idea to hearing

In mass many city has the similar law for almost 100 years which was applicable to that time situation

Nowdays , no city enforce this law which seems conflict house law .

My second question is whether there is private personal information protection law

For example , if landlord pass Tenant’s information to city , and it cause law suit against landlord from talent ,whether city should be responsible for that

Thx --98.110.xxx.xxx




private information (by WMH [NC]) Posted on: Jan 12, 2019 4:59 AM
Message:

Busy, please note: "familial status" does not refer to marriage or legal status of adult relationships of any sort. It ONLY refers to children under the age of 18. It is illegal to discriminate based on children in the household, but nowhere does federal Fair Housing mention marriage or legal relationship status of adults in a household. --50.82.xxx.xx




private information (by NE [PA]) Posted on: Jan 12, 2019 5:27 AM
Message:

Don't comply. This has already been shot down in other cities. --50.107.xxx.xxx




private information (by nhsailmaker [NH]) Posted on: Jan 12, 2019 5:27 AM
Message:

Freedom and Liberty are not passed down through the generations. We must fight for them every day.

That said - Taxachussets is a lost clause - so live under the imperial socialists rule or move --73.182.xxx.xxx




private information (by Rose [MA]) Posted on: Jan 12, 2019 5:33 AM
Message:

Dear sir/madam

Thx

I would need more support opinion from you to give speach in the hearing next Tuesday meeting

Thx --98.110.xxx.xxx




private information (by plenty [MO]) Posted on: Jan 12, 2019 5:44 AM
Message:

nHsailmaker... Freedom and Liberty are not passed down through the generations. 

Nice summary. Do not forget. Excellent summary sentence. --99.203.xx.xxx




private information (by LindaJ [NY]) Posted on: Jan 12, 2019 5:53 AM
Message:

Speak about how they are going to enforce this. Maybe they do get a form from the tenant about relationships, but are they really going to check DNA and marriage licenses. Many people are "families" that are not married or not blood relatives.

How this is discriminatory to people who may not have a traditional relationship. I would think there is a lot of cases where 2 people and their children are in a relationship and there is no formal agreement. What about adopted or foster children?

This is the United States in the 21st century, we need to be inclusive and tolerant and this law is not. It invades privacy. How is all that going to hold up in the courts? What about refugees and immigrants that are trying to get settled here but can't afford a place by themselves?

In the end, you may have to ignore it, then take it to court if it is passed.

--108.4.xxx.xx




private information (by Sean [OR]) Posted on: Jan 12, 2019 8:54 AM
Message:

Ignore it. I'm not sure how something like this could be enforced. --47.28.x.xxx




private information (by Ed [PA]) Posted on: Jan 12, 2019 11:27 AM
Message:

Try hitting them with Massachusetts statute 201 CMR 17.00 Standards for the Protection of Personal Information of MA Residents. Explain landlords cannot share their tenants personnel information. --71.112.xxx.xxx




private information (by Rose [MA]) Posted on: Jan 12, 2019 11:40 AM
Message:

Dear sir/madam:

Thx for all of your support and comment !

I am more confident to give speech

I would also mentioned the law fair house

But I do not know what’s this law made years and number ? Would you pls tell me that ?

And what else laws I could refer to support my speech ?

Thx

Rose

--98.110.xxx.xxx




private information (by Rose [MA]) Posted on: Jan 12, 2019 11:40 AM
Message:

Dear sir/madam:

Thx for all of your support and comment !

I am more confident to give speech

I would also mentioned the law fair house

But I do not know what’s this law made years and number ? Would you pls tell me that ?

And what else laws I could refer to support my speech ?

Thx

Rose

--98.110.xxx.xxx




private information (by Busy [WI]) Posted on: Jan 12, 2019 2:03 PM
Message:

WNC, my degree in HR says otherwise. Court cases have determined it. --70.92.xxx.xxx




private information (by Busy [WI]) Posted on: Jan 12, 2019 3:44 PM
Message:

From Mass.gov website:

Examples of Fair Housing violations:

race, color, national origin, religion, sex, facial status ( ie children) disability, source of income (eg. Section 8 Voucher,) sexual orientation, gender identity, age, marital status, veteran or active military status, genetic information.

(Keep in mind, dear readers, Rose needs help in Massachusetts, these are the laws she must use. Your state may be different, but, that is topic for another thread.)

Rose, my local police department sent a letter out requesting landlords release information of all persons residing in the property. They said it was for protection of the community, in the worst areas of the city, so about three police districts were sending these letters out. I called, discussed this with the officer who was collecting the data.

I asked, was this for an EXISTING investigation. No.

I asked how the information would be used. So the police would know who was ‘supposed’ to be at a property.

I asked if MY property was under special consideration. No.

I asked if I would be violating a law by refusing to comply. No. (Good, because I was ready to lawyer up.)

I told the officer I would NEVER give that information up on my tenants, UNLESS there was a specific investigation of my specific property. I told the officer that I felt this was an extreme form of discrimination, and, in fact, what the Nazis did with the Jews in the 1930s. (Making the Jews register, for their own protection.)

Many owner-occupied neighbors in the neighborhood also were voicing their opinions. Very vocally.

The end result, in my city was, the city stopped collecting information, as it wasn’t mandatory, many, many people voiced dissent. The local police precincts DID set up monthly community- police meetings, where citizens can attend, its open to the public. Issues are discussed, ideas have been generated. One of my neighbors who had been especially upset about that letter asking for occupant information, now is a ‘block captain.’ He has always kept an eye on the neighborhood, knows all the kids. He talks to all of the neighbors he can before each meeting, invites anyone along.

So far, I have noticed, there are now new speed bumps on a lot of streets, and two officers walk or ride bikes through the streets. Violent crime( homicides) was down quite a bit in my city this year.

Stick to your principles, you are right to fight this. This is lazy policing at its worst. This is EXACTLY what the Nazis did to Jews, homosexuals, persons with disabilities in the 1930s. And, the Nazis said it was for their own good.

American Civil Liberties Union and Jewish rights groups might also help fight this. --70.92.xxx.xxx




private information (by Rose [MA]) Posted on: Jan 12, 2019 7:31 PM
Message:

Dear Busy:

Great information and message !

Great thanks for your information and time

I will prepare tomorrow and

Will be back to get more advice with my draft

Thanks

This website is great and help landlord a lot

Thx

Rose

--98.110.xxx.xxx




private information (by Rose [MA]) Posted on: Jan 12, 2019 7:45 PM
Message:

Dear all :

The reason city ask landlord to report city tenants and and three unrelated are not allowed

They think

1 unrelated people have more safety issue like fire etc

2 more likely created noise

3 parking

I will also need to talk back to them for above thread

Would input or advice you have to be agains above 3 one by one ?

Thx --98.110.xxx.xxx




private information (by Rose [MA]) Posted on: Jan 12, 2019 7:53 PM
Message:

This is what I got for 100 year las around law:

Seems hard to argue

—————————

Lodging Housing Law

Although enacted nearly a hundred years ago in 1918, the court found that the lodging house law has relevance today with respect to the common practice of overcrowding persons in an unsuitable space and fire prevention. To obtain a lodging house license, an applicant must have sprinkler systems in the premises, which most landlords find too expensive to install.

The landlords argued that a group of four college students was a “family unit” not lodgers. While the landlords get credit for creative lawyering, the court didn’t buy the argument, holding that “we have no doubt that four or more unrelated adults, sharing housing while attending college, is not an arrangement that lends itself to the formation of a stable and durable household.”

--98.110.xxx.xxx




private information (by Busy [WI]) Posted on: Jan 12, 2019 7:54 PM
Message:

Rose, I suggest you contact the Massachusett’s Fair Housing Office, to see if they are aware of this. It looks like their website has some good information. A search of Massachusett’s housing laws will help you prepare.

It does seem that your city might be doing it to limit number of students in student housing. I know my city had, or has such an ordinance that was passed a couple of years ago, but, as I am no where near any student housing areas, I haven’t paid attention to know if that has been overturned.

In my case, the city was doing it to track ‘who should be in the neighborhood.’ Something I obviously am very against them knowing. And, I support my local police. Just NOT a police state.

Oh, typo correction- familial status, not facial status, in protected classes list. --70.92.xxx.xxx




private information (by JB [OR]) Posted on: Jan 12, 2019 7:55 PM
Message:

1. Safety issues: shouldn't be their concern. Way, way to much overreach.

2. Noise: they need to deal with it IF and when it happens. Horrible argument for that.

3. Parking: They can limit parking in specific areas if they have to. I limit vehicles at all my properties. This is a stupid fix. --24.20.xxx.xxx




private information (by Still Learning [NH]) Posted on: Jan 12, 2019 9:03 PM
Message:

An ordinance passed several years ago saying that no more than 2 unrelated people could live in a dwelling in certain areas in Durham NH where UNH is. I don’t believe it was overturned and some landlords sold properties due to it. The premise was to get houses full of partying students out of residential neighborhoods filled with families. Honestly, zoning some student areas separate from family neighborhoods isn’t a bad idea unless you are the landlord owning a single family house in a neighborhood renting it out to college students. I’m not sure if Durham makes landlords report info or if unhappy neighbors lodge complaints. I know the fines were large when this took effect. --24.61.xxx.xx




private information (by Rose [MA]) Posted on: Jan 12, 2019 9:10 PM
Message:

Dear Still

Good ideas to seperate students zones from residential

But nowdays only residential areas next to college have these problem and there are complains from this areas

Dear busy

In mass like Boston and many cities

They all have this old law but none of them can enforced

So even I call them . They just said yes there is this’ll old law , but not enforced

This is why I am here to ask forblandlord support

Thx

Rose --98.110.xxx.xxx




private information (by Busy [WI]) Posted on: Jan 13, 2019 10:10 AM
Message:

Here’s my issue with the state saying ‘four unrelated adults....is not an arrangement that lends itself to the formation of a stable and durable household.’ :

First, it’s not the states job to say this type of person, or this type of relationship isn’t desired.

Second, it puts landlord in a very tricky spot of probably discriminating based upon: age, marital status, sexual identity and national origin, even though landlord isn’t attempting to do that.

Here are some examples where this ordinance, law, ruling, whatever puts landlords such as myself in violation of fair housing law, using my two bedroom, 650 sq ft house as example (basing this on Wisconsin’s Fair Housing laws, which are similar to Massachusetts) :

2 gay couples want to rent the house. That’s two persons per bedroom, so meets HUD guidelines. But, they aren’t legally married (sorry, I haven’t kept up on gay marriage laws, not sure if they can be in my state) . Because they are NOT married, I would have four unrelated adults. I am NOT going to as about their marital status, OR, their sexual orientation, both of those are protected in Wisconsin Fair Housing laws, as in Massachusetts ( Neither would I WANT to ask, it’s their business, but that is an aside.)

Now, what if one of those four had a child from a previous relationship? (Sexual orientation also covers bi-sexual, in my state, ) and the parent ends up with custody. Let’s say it’s a young child, so, the couple simply adds a crib to their room. Now, there are five people, only two are related.

My question for the state would be, ‘what business is it of yours how they are related. As long as they are allowing neighbors quiet enjoyment, the city, state, and landlord should stay out of their business.

Another example, using my two bedroom, 650 sq ft house:

A Hmong family, recently immigrated from Laos, wants to move in. A couple, a child, and Grandma and Grandpa. One couple in one bedroom, with a large bed, so the child sleeps between them, a box ready for the new baby they are expecting. Grandma and Grandpa in the other room. So, we’ve got five people, one more on the way, and they are all related by blood or marriage. But, ARE they? Hmong wedding ceremonies take place in the home. Many, many, many Hmong immigrants have the Hmong wedding ceremony without realizing that they don’t have a marriage license, issued by a government body, so, in the eyes of US law, they might not be married legally. AND, Hmong couples marry young. So, the Grandma and Grandpa, in this instance, might be in their early 30s! The young couple might be in their teens. Now, there are some blood relationships here, but I am NOT going to ask about any of it. I’m going to have all legal adults on the lease.

Is it really the city or states business to make either of these ‘family units’ have to defend themselves.?

The city can come up with better ways to protect against fire, noise, et cetera. Making persons who live in family units other than the stereo-type of [‘ married mother and father, with 2.2 children ‘ ] have to JUSTIFY their living arrangements is NOT a good idea.

‘Freedom and liberty are not passed down through the generations. We must fight for them every day.’ Said by nhsailmaker, January 12, 2019, 5:27AM, MrLandlord.com forum. -73.182.xxx.xxxx --70.92.xxx.xxx




private information (by Rose [MA]) Posted on: Jan 13, 2019 10:33 AM
Message:

Dear busy

Thx for your information

I will first use your examples and at the end , ask city counselor

1 based on fair equity law

I could not ask and check and screen for application

2 expose Tenant’s personal information to city

Based on law I could not without Tenant’s agreements

If I gets sued by Tenant’s because I am forced to follow city ordinance

Whose responsibility for the law sue

Is this good way to give pressure city counselors ?

Thx --98.110.xxx.xxx




private information (by Busy [WI]) Posted on: Jan 13, 2019 11:06 AM
Message:

I would also offer some ideas about how they might achieve the objective of increasing safety, without putting landlords in position of discriminating.

For instance, maybe the local colleges and the city offer student training classes. Also, maybe point out things you do in your landlord practice, to help tenants learn to be safe, learn to be good neighbors. I used to do a monthly newsletter that was well-received, I need to get back to that. I had tips about managing the house, along with fun community things to do, so it got read. --70.92.xxx.xxx




private information (by Rose [MA]) Posted on: Jan 13, 2019 11:17 AM
Message:

Dear busy

Thx for your help and information !

I heard that city is afraid any law sue

If I bring more legal questions

Is it possible that city will not move forward for this ordinance proposal ?

Our landlord organizer mentioned this

They said it is cheap for us to stop this

If getting to law sue

Landlords also lose money

Any advice ?

Thx --98.110.xxx.xxx




private information (by Busy [WI]) Posted on: Jan 13, 2019 5:47 PM
Message:

When it comes to lawsuits, I am clueless.

I will say though, municipalities trying to infringe on civil rights really gets me ticked off. Some things might be worth a lawsuit.

I was greatful that my city backed down on registering the residents in undesirable areas. And, I have heard great things have been coming out of those monthly police-community meetings. I wasn’t the one getting the city to back out of the registration program, the neighbors did that. I did just strongly voice my dissent with one long phone call.

If your group is on the third meeting with the city over this, it might take a lawsuit to stop it. --70.92.xxx.xxx




private information (by BRAD 20,000 [IN]) Posted on: Jan 13, 2019 6:06 PM
Message:

Rose,

My 2 cents having fought such idiocy:

The hearing is too late. It’s already decided. They are too organized and too proud to consider changing their minds in public.

It’s the weeks and days BEFORE the meeting that count.

One councilperson has launched this to make himher self look good and convinced the others. Makes that offical look like “a man for the people”. Re-election is everything.

But still speak up at the hearing. Hand each offical a copy of Fair Housing law showing it is illegal to discriminate based on family status. If they ignore federal law that proves they are idiots.

(Was that too harsh?)

I also recommend your assoc hire an atty to represent the assoc and challenge the proposal. Delay it long enough it falls off the schedule. That’s a legit tactic. They have to vote within a certain time period from the first hearing.

Good luck !

BRAD

--73.102.xxx.xxx




private information (by BRAD 20,000 [IN]) Posted on: Jan 13, 2019 6:11 PM
Message:

Maybe suggest they start the program by doing DNA tests on the Mayor’s and council’s families to set a good example of leadership.

BRAD --73.102.xxx.xxx




private information (by plenty [MO]) Posted on: Jan 13, 2019 6:13 PM
Message:

Ive used "do you claim them on your income tax papers?" Question. Thats a dependent. Thats a family member. Thats my clarification. --99.203.xx.xx




private information (by Rose [MA]) Posted on: Jan 13, 2019 6:34 PM
Message:

Dear sir/madam

August is the first hearing

If some landlords did not show up

The ordinance would be passed

Oct there was second hearing

Landlords Had more people there

And then

Between second hearing and third hearing

City try to group twonsides meetings

Other side reject to talk to landlord

And third hearing delayed unti this month 15

This is how it is now

More inputs and advices are needed pls

Before the hearing

Thx --98.110.xxx.xxx




private information (by Ray-N-Pa [PA]) Posted on: Jan 15, 2019 6:13 PM
Message:

What happens if you have three or four special needs residents in the same home? Are they going to call them a non-family? The are living together because that is a special housing niche.

Is the city going to break the ADA? --72.23.xxx.xx




private information (by Rose [MA]) Posted on: Jan 15, 2019 8:10 PM
Message:

Dear alll:

Just got home from the hearing

Otherwise just asked to enforce existing 100 years old law

Landlord sides argue whether the enforcement method is legal

After hearing , city just said continue discussing

No result

There will be next hearing again --98.110.xxx.xxx




private information (by Busy [WI]) Posted on: Jan 16, 2019 4:19 PM
Message:

Sounds like your group has them thinking.... --70.92.xxx.xxx



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