I sat and watched the BIG case in NY. You know the property value case. thinking back over the years of loan applications, I've done, I would have been guilty of "over value" at least 150 times.

Be honest. Who here has not inflated the value of their worth (RE and other) to make that loan application look and smell like a rose? The flip side who here hasn't appealed their RE property taxes and said "you got that way over valued"?

Now I will agree it is 100% wrong to do this with the intention of taking the money for nefarious reasons-- 100%. I also believe it's 100% OK to do if your intention is NOT to defraud.

Who hasn't thought and said my rental rate is based on the value of my property-- knowing the value was inflated?

The way I see it - who am I? I may have several decades of experience but I don't have a license, so all that I have is an opinion. So does everyone else

The true value of any item is the price that the buyer is willing to pay and the seller is willing to accept.

Prior to that moment, valuation is a guessing game.

Every loan I've ever gotten from a lending institution has had the value of the collateral verified by an appraiser via an appraisal.

YES APPRAISEL!

The appraiser is chosen by the lender and the appraiser's fee is billed to me.

The loans in question are not in default. And from the preliminary research I've heard of, the "stated" values of these properties is comfortably below their actual value.

Yet some rogue NY attorney general has decided SHE thinks something illegal happened here - while criminals are not prosecuted under her watch.

This is blatant election interference striving for one-party rule and should concern all of us no matter which candidate/party you support.

I have never done either of those things that I can remember. Property taxes here are re-evaluated every seven years and the evaluations are usually too low compared to the "real world" price so I'm not challenging that!!! Sometimes, depending on the year, they come close - still, nothing to challenge really.

Loan applications include an independent appraisal of the property done by the bank. Those are usually exactly what you want for your loan.

An appraisal is defined as an opinion of value.

A statement of value is a less-educated opinion of value.

I don't know how it can be illegal to give an opinion that doesn't match someone elses' opinion about a piece of information that is, after all is said and done, simply an opinion.

Banks are supposed to use appraisers. If they decide to trust the owner's word, then the owner should be held harmless if they say it's worth a bazillion dollars and it turns out to be worth $1.25.

The bankers who risked their investors' / shareholders' money by making the loans with such a poor vetting process are the ones who should face charges. They had a fiduciary duty to act in their clients' best interests and failed to do so, which is actually illegal and not merely an opinion.

Guess I missed the mark. This is for a loan application. You don't own the properly your seeking a loan for.

SO THE application -- you know the bank form where you list assets. When you put your property on the application there not appraising them-- your listing what YOU think there worth.

Sisco your just placing what the value is on the loan app. Do you put the last appraisal or what you THINK THE VALUE IS?

WMH you've never appealed your property tax? You are so luck you have low taxes.

unb:

Perhaps you haven't (I find that incredible), but many people DO get loans on property they already own.

I have several times, and plan to again. Putting a HELOC on a free & clear property makes it look encumbered and provides instant access to cash if/when I need/want it.

When getting a HELOC at my Credit Union (at least previous times, when the manager & tellers all knew me by sight & name) it's been VERY easy. Now there is a new manager & mostly new crew at my branch - but I don't anticipate much trouble, anyway.

Another vote for politically motivated aka election interference. Stop watching CNN, MSNBC, FOX, ABC, CBS. Reading the NY times and Washington, Huffington Post. 98% of J school graduates are "no borders, no countries" types.

DJ loved the part about they recognized you. So your loans have name recognition?

So whether a new loan app or refi or HELOC when you apply and list your other assets-- what value do you place on those listed?

Ray N PA so do you inflate that opinion? When listing assets.

To answer your question, no, I have not purposely inflated the value of anything to try to get a loan. I've been honest in my dealings with my fellow man.

And I get that things are "opinions" on value. But, from reading the case, I'm not sure that is all we are talking about, right? I mean, it looks like the SIZE of some properties were "exaggerated" (like, to THREE TIMES their actual size). Size of an apartment is not an opinion nor is it based on the "market". It is a known fact and stating it is something else -- especially when it is WAY ABOVE what it actually is -- is not a question of anything except distorting facts in order to get approved for a loan.

Also, even when talking about value... He stated a value for his apartment that was higher than ANY apartment in NYC had EVER sold for. And for another property, his value was 10 times that of what any appraiser thought it would go for. So, sure, there is "opinion" on "market value" and then there is completely making up a figure higher than anything similar has EVER sold for.

So, sorry, but I don't buy the "we all do this" and "value is an opinion" argument. We don't do what was done here and value is not an opinion when it comes to the SIZE of an apartment or stating a value that is higher than ANY apartment in NYC has ever sold for (or another is 10x what most put the value at). That's not how "market value" works.

I agree with John on this one.

John and WMH your in la la land on this. Never sold anything for more then it was worth-- car boat plane land?

Specific to johns post. John here in GA you can not get a loan without an appraisal. You can not go and measure it your self. In fact lenders have a list of appraisers approved to do work for the lender.

As a mega lender don't you think the lender supplied the folks to appraise these property's? THEIR folks! I mean you can't make a 40 story building be a 70 story but certainly a 12 inch ruler is universal when value is needed by the sq ft.

WMH we appeal every year there's a millage increase. Like to mention when we first looked into this appeal process what we found on the first 50 of our property cards there where huge errors. Sq ft was a big problem. like a garage was measured as heated area which has more value then none heated. Bay windows-- a bay window that doesn't go all the way to ground is less value added. Bathrooms listed incorrectly. So John there are huge errors in these values. Marvin Poor is a copy that does this type of work and finds these errors.

We saved thousands-- and for the next 3 years because once a correction is made it's value is for 3 years.

I am an excellent example - I own oil wells in Texas. Any idea what they are worth?

I have gas wells in WV and in SWPa, what are they worth?

I have a NNN property - finally there is something that I may have idea on.

I refinanced three duplexes this year. I met the appraiser and went through all six units. They are all identical. Well half are mirror images of the other half but same size and layout.

Getting started with the new appraiser I said what I was hoping they would come in at. I was almost scolded because I guess that isn't allowed any longer. I remember years back the appraiser asking what I was wanting out of the places. This was before the crash tho.

The properties came in higher than I expected although lower than what I said to the appraiser.

She had all the info from the county website but still did her due diligence on each place. That's what she was paid to do. I was there because the properties were all inhabited. Although my chit chat might have made the places come in higher.

What bank would take a self appraisal? Isn't that what appraiser are for? An appraisal is a snapshot in time.

After the crash I was upside down in 4 properties that did not change until 2014-2015. I never missed a payment. I needed, wanted, and had cash flow and patience. That is what happens when the government employee/elected official can not understand businesses and industries.

No one was harmed; the bank got their money returned with interest. So we need a likable factor or have the same attitude/poli beliefs as elected officials to borrow money from the banks. This case is unsettling at the very least.

What bank would take a self appraisal? Isn't that what appraiser are for? An appraisal is a snapshot in time.

After the crash I was upside down in 4 properties that did not change until 2014-2015. I never missed a payment. I needed, wanted, and had cash flow and patience. That is what happens when the government employee/elected official can not understand businesses and industries.

No one was harmed; the bank got their money returned with interest. So we need a likable factor or have the same attitude/poli beliefs as elected officials to borrow money from the banks. This case is unsettling at the very least.

unb: I'm not in la-la land. Even if I've sold something for slightly more than others thought it was "worth".

Again, we're not talking about some fairly subjective take on "market value" here. We're talking about obviously inflating values in some cases by 3x and other cases by 10x what any reasonable person would value them at.

Trying to to use an argument that "value is subjective" on this is what is la-la land talk! Yes, the value of property is SOMEWHAT subjective. So, maybe 10-20%? Heck, I'll give you 50%! My guess is that if you got 100 random appraisers together to value one of these properties, they'd all be within about 50% of the average. So, yes, it is subjective. But if one of those appraisers came back with a value TEN TIMES that of anyone else, well, I'd say something was up with that appraiser... He's either scamming someone or has absolutely NO IDEA what he is doing.

I'm not sure which one of those T is, but it sounds like it was very likely one of the two!

I haven't followed the case. But yeh, if I have a property worth between $100,000 and $140,000 I might guess on the high end of value for bank loan purposes.

But it's just a guess.

And it's def not twice as much or 3 times or 10 times.

The client didn't appraise. The bank sent their people. They over-valued the property so they could do/get the loan.

SO why isn't the bank on trial? They over-valued it?

NE - watch this.

The B family received 30,000,000.00 from one of our adversaries.

Is it possible this sum of money was "inflated" in exchange for what our adversary received?

When I am choosing a tenant, I want them to be truthful so that I can assess the risk I am taking by giving them control of a valuable asset. THEY may think they can afford the house, but it's my property. As the owner, I set the rules and want to make that decision, since I'm the one at risk.

I see a bank loan as the same. You may think in your own mind that the amount of money you're trying to borrow is fine, that there's no real risk to the bank. But shouldn't the owner of the asset be allowed to set the rules for loaning out that asset?

When someone says "Hey, T did something wrong", how come the response from some of you is "Yeah, but what about what B did?"

T sucks. B sucks. See how easy that was?

What helps to tear this country apart is the left-wing, ring-wing crap like this. How can you NOT see both sides of an argument sometimes? How can you NOT see that both sides suck sometimes?

This "my team vs your team" crap is what has ruined everything.

Statements like "Uh oh, the democrat A team showed up! Here we go!" provide absolutely no value (and usually get said when someone starts presenting actual facts about something). And then add in the usual "I don't know the facts at all, but I don't care because I've already decided" attitude and it just shows that you really don't care about the facts at all. You've already decided and all anyone has to throw into it is "But what about this!??"

Normal people can see that both sides suck at times. If T did something wrong, then he sucks for doing it. If B did something wrong, then he sucks for doing it.

You thinking that me recognizing when T does something wrong means that I'm sucking from the teat of B is a joke! You're just going along with the plan to divide the country instead of anyone coming together to actually get anything done.

You are the freaking problem if you don't see that both "sides" often suck.

If I can get a place appraised at 10x the worth I just need to be sure I can pay the debt back.

If the lender is good with the deal and so am I then who gets hurt?

Now if I pull out all that money from a place and then let it go back to the lender that is on me. It is also on the lender for taking the chance and losing.

I realize that it is against the rules, I just don't agree with it. I could go to a hard money guy, get the funds out that I needed and pay it back as designed. If I do my due diligence and feel the deal is good why can't I move forward with it?

Because years back a bunch of McWorkers decided they could buy expensive houses with shoddy loans and foreclosed on them. I made some of my best deals right before the collapse. I miss being able to structure loans the way that worked best for me. I paid every penny back. Always early payments. But I am now not allowed to deal like I did.

Rant/Off

Note that I didn't say that Rs were dividing the country. I didn't say anything specific to R or D at all. I said that any people who can't see that often both sides suck are what is dividing the country.

YOU were apparently the one to assume those people would be Rs. Because, again, I absolutely didn't say it.

But I find it very interesting that that is what YOU assumed when I talked about people who wouldn't see the problem with both sides...

I don’t know why you would be surprised that I would assume D’s and R’s are dividing the country when discussing politics John, what else is there?