Happy New Year!!

I finally paid an attorney to review my customer-made lease that I used for many years.

I am not a license realtor, I can not use the standard lease from the real estate commission deparment.

I have updated and modified my own lease thru the years and used some of suggestions and tips from this forum.

I want to make sure that my lease covers all the possisble or potential issues regarding the lease.

The attroney finally sent back her revised lease. It has total 19 pages and two columns per pages, it also means it could become 38 pages per lease, when one column should become one page.

I was stunned to receive this revised lease. I have not even get time to review its full contents.

But, I am very sure that I will not use it due to its number of pages

Can you advise me what should a normal lease should be?

How should I deal with this attroney? Yes, the fee already paid. At the beginning, she even sent it via a .pdf formate, I told her that I can not edit a .pdf file, I need a word file instead. After one month, she finally sent the file in the word file.

Thanks.

19 pages, 2 columns is probably much too long. What's in it?

A lease should not contain every little detail of how a tenant should live. It should rather contain a basic legal framework for the relationship between the landlord and the tenant.

There are a few things that are necessary to make it an operable lease, like the fact that landlord lease to tenant, description of the property, how much rent, when and how it is to be paid, commencement and termination dates, a few things that specify choices, often related to local law. That hardly takes 2 x 19 pages.

A lease should NOT contain trivial details regarding tenant conduct, like no spitting on the floor. A set of rules can be referenced in the lease, but specified in its own document.

P.S.,

My own lease is 6 pages (1 column), and haasn't needed any revision in many years, except for changes in local law like my towns anti-smoking ordinance.

As Moshe said, you want your lease is the contract to rent the property for a specific amount of time. It should contains the specifics of which property, payments and who is responsible for what... who pays the heat, taxes, water, clears snow, yard work etc. It may contain some other important contract info like pets allowed, water containing items not allowed, what happens at the end of the timeframe. Unless this is in a huge font with double spacing, it seems like a lot of paper, and that will be lost on a tenant anyway.

I agree 19-38 pages is probably too long. Why do I say "probably?" Depends on what is in your lease...

My lease is 5 pieces of paper, front and back, for a total of 10 pages.

Part of my lease is the Lead Based Paint Addendum and the Animal Agreement Addendum (+2 pages). So technically a lease for an older home rented to a pet owner would be 12 pages. These are optional items since not all houses are built prior to 1978 and not all tenants have pets; therefore, I do not include them in the main body of the lease.

My lease also includes one full page for emergency contact information and one full page for charge card information and authorization. This isn't part of a typical lease per se, but I include it so there's no "whoops, I forgot that extra form" after lease signing. These forms DO apply to all tenants.

Size of font, line spacing, and margins matter too. I use a standard 11-point font, single spaced, with 1 inch margins. If I were to double space the text like my high school English teacher would want me too, all of a sudden my lease is now 24 pages.

The important thing is the CONTENT, not the LENGTH. Your lease should address the basics like rent amount, how paid, when due, penalty for failure to pay on time (i.e. late fee). Also care of the premises. Who is responsible for what duties (mowing, snow removal, changing batteries in smoke detectors)? Also what in included and what is not (appliances, utilities, etc).

I have had a few lawyers as crew over the years. A famous saying is "less is more"

much of a lease is covered by state law

mine is 9 pages and has been reviewed by a lawyer who uses it himself for his clients

My lease is four pages ( 2- double sided pages) and a one page lead addendum. I've modified the lease slightly over the years but is essentially the same lease I have used for over 20 years with very good success. I subscribe to the less is more theory - I sweat the big stuff and do not want the major items to get lost in a 10 - 20 page document.

One main reason I thing this lease has worked so well for me: I have always gone through the lease in person with each new tenant so there is a complete understanding between the tenant and me about my expectations. I strongly emphasize the items that are never negotiable (the big ones: no pets, no smoking, no (habitual) late payments, respect the neighbors and property). Usually takes 30 - 45 minutes.

I look at landlording much like being a parent. Explain to the tenants early on the framework of what is expected and do not ignore problems when you first become aware of them.

I have many standard leases I've gotten over the years from several good sources such as Mr. Landlord and my local Apartment association. Also attending seminars, classes and reading changes in the law I've had to revise these leases to suit my needs.

I have the same lease in small print, larger print, standards 8x10 and legal size, 8x17.

These same leases are from 2 full pages to 5 pages.

I've been to an eviction court where as the lease was 12 pages and the Owner and Tenant didn't read the entire lease and/or understand the terminology. The judge gave the benefit of not understanding the lease to the tenant and ruled some clauses weren't legal. It should have been written in simple terms that the average renter could understand.

An attorney told me that it's easier to win a case if there is not so much detail. He said that leaving something off the list can make the judge throw out a case if there are too many things on the list but not that one behavior.

I use the old Blumberg lease that I buy preprinted from Blumberg. They are online. It looks like a real legal document and gives general statements like: No changes may be made to the apartment without written permission of the landlord. So anything they do is a violation. That would be instead of saying: no nails in walls, no nails in window frames, do not change tile, do not repaint without permission and on and on. It sounds like the lawyer was trying to help you by making the lease more like your lease and adding some important changes.

Out of curiosity, what size font is your lawyer using? What format such as bullets vs paragraphs for the content of the lease?

John

There is NO way i would use a "local atty" lease. You have many possibilities right here on the site to get leases tried and true. I've seen way to many attorney's who think they are gods (ironside) when they're in court and get fumbled up when the magistrate judge, who handles this every days, spanks them. I've seen some of these clowns actually reading the LL/tenant laws in court and asking other atty's for help cause they never handled RE court and tenants. IT'S amazing.

Single sided about 5 pages. That's it.

Sure would like to know what the charge was for this? 35 pg monster.

I prefer to have detail lease because bad tenants may do something or not do something and causing problems to neighborhood and landlord. Also my English is not good enough to argue with them.

Sorry, I exagerated, it is actually 33 pages. Here is the breakdown: Standard Residential Lease Agreement 15 pages, Rules and Regulations 6 pages, Pet Addendum 5 pages, Bedbug Addendum 2 pages, Mold and Mildew Addendum 2 pages, Lead disclosure 2 pages, Inventory Checklist 2 pages. The Bedbug Addendum and Mold and Mildew addendum are separate because they document specific Tenant behaviour to prevent bedbugs and mold.

" Sometimes I add a clause specific to the building like: Deck stairway is not an entrance or exit. It is a fire escape only. "

Just a suggestion, but a clause like that doesn't really belong in a lease.

The lease is a LEGAL document, meant to assign specific rights and obligations to each party, not to regulate behavior. There is no way that putting a clause like this one will grant LL any rights in court, and thats what the lease is for.

Here at 7 pages plus 2 mold, 1 lead, 1 property condition.

CGB my answer is one sentence than. The laws of MI will be followed. Done and Done. Here in GA there is no reason not to pay rent-- lets face it that's what it comes down to. If as you say there are specific laws for MI different then a standard lease simple write in lease STATE LAWS SHALL CONTROL.

Mosha example about entrance exit-- needs to be painted on the door. Not a part of the lease the tenant lost.

Alice,

I would LOVE to see a copy of your new lease. Can we get together on this?

Avoid Wimpy-Lease-itis.

Mine is 31 pages long because I've been at this biz for many years. Each time something goes wrong or I am surprised in court (Over 350 evictions) I write another clause to protect myself if it happens again.

ALL my protections and anything I want to say to the res or the judge is in print, initialed by the res.

It's also the tool to train the res, train the judge, and block the free attys. Like Jeffrey teaches: Communicate Expectations.

The state law is not enough.

A judge made the comment it's the best lease he has ever seen. He tells our assoc that if something is not spelled out in the lease he does not have to award it.

If you want to charge them for late fees, trash, cleaning, ANYTHING it MUST be spelled out in print.

LLs complain to me all the time how their court does not look at the lease - BECAUSE IT DOESN'T SAY ANYTHING!

A full page, 2 columns of Standard Cleaning and Repair Costs means I can simply charge the agreed price to repaint a room ($275), clean a stove ($50), replace a blind ($25), replace interior door ($150), base rate $50 per hour... without messing with receipts and invoices. The evictee can argue but he already agreed to those prices.

Addendums: I have watched them thrown out in court. Why addend? If it's important it should be IN the lease.

Paper is CHEAP!! 4 cents a page to copy, so $1.24 per lease to protect me and my $150,000 house.

Get with the times. I just reviewed a lease for a big apartment complex - 32 pages.

If a lawyer tells you to be vague in the lease, RUN! Vague means you must hire him/her to represent you and HOPE they convince the judge. Why on earth would you not just spell out the desired actions or results? Free attys for deadbeats LOVE vague and short leases!

Also, my lease MAKES me money with PayDayPlanRent, appliance and animal fees, ELT, etc.

I update my lease each May before Convention. Last year I made 121 updates - vaping, legal marijuana, no rent by US Mail, autodraft backed up by credit card if their checking account bounces, Bedbug training, mold exclusion, triple damages on NSF checks, septic tank monthly fee, Zero Tolerance on lates...

Timid and short leases leave the LL exposed. I recently watched a LL "lose" $3000 in court because her lease was "short".

If you have a strong lease you don't have to be strong personally.

BRAD

PS if you DO NOT have a strong lease you will have to give verbal orders. THAT is when residents start to feel the LL is no longer being nice.

alicewonder of TX,

You paid an attorney to review YOUR WIMPY lease that YOU used for many years.

Updated and modified my own lease thru the years and used some of suggestions and tips from this forum. YEP as tenants create problems and something was missing in the lease it was added to the lease.

The attorney sent back her revised total 19 pages and two columns per pages, it also means it could become 38 pages per lease, when one column should become one page. The newly formed book bound lease and NOW YOU DO NOT want to use it then why ask for help on here or from your attorney???

I was stunned to receive this revised lease. WHY you asked your attorney to do her job BUT NOW you are not satisfied with her job.

But, I am very sure that I will not use it due to its number of pages. ARE YOU SERIOUS? Your attorney that knows the landlord tenant law and you don't want to use the lease. NEXT TIME YOU WANT TO throw away your money I will give you my address.

Can you advise me what should a normal lease should be? There is no such thing as a normal lease. WHY because tenants create more issues that increases the leases.

How should I deal with this attorney? While shred the lease from the attorney and shred your lease and now go lease-less since you don't like your lease and you don't like your legal counsel advice go to a month to month, NO LEASE and hope that you don't get BURNED by the next deadbeat that you let into your unit. AND now you need to know the Texas landlord tenant law word for word because without a lease you will need to be very very knowledgeable with the TEXAS LANDLORD TENANT LAW.

OR

Since you don't like your lease and the attorneys lease it may be time to hire a real estate agent to help get all your units sold and retire for the rental biz.

Best of Success!!!

Thank you for all your input/feedback.

Here are a few notes:

the attorney is an estate planning attorney. She does not do eviction. I now know how to do an eviction process, except I have not found a way to get the judgement back from the deadbeat yet.

A copy is about 10 cents per page in my town.

I will review the lease, I already gave a quick review and knowing it is not suit my style. I will take all your suggestions to reveiw this revised lease again. My lease is annual, not month to month.

The font size is 12 in a word file.

CGB reference your post at 250. MI LL's as with all LL's should know the law- it's job #1 of being a LL to know more than your tenant. A standard lease with some additions such as MI laws shall prevail as part of the lease is the cover.. As an example you mentioned the font-- why does that need to be mentioned in the lease? Make the font size correct and that's done. You make the lease as tight as you can -- add what you need extra - that includes addendum pages for say items not to be placed in toilet yada yada yada. Ya gotta know your lease and your state laws. BOTTOM line.

FYI the items you mention as needing to be in lease with exception of the nursing home item-- we have in our regular lease.

Someone wrote about guest of tenant hurt. Here that's covered in the GA law already- do I need a clause? When you sit in on cases surely you've heard people say 'I didn't know it was the law" well if its in print in the law books it's up to you to know it. That sounds impossible but that's the answer judges give-- CASE law 101.

GREAT post. thanks.

I use a local landlord associations 2 page lease that covers California laws. I know in my tenant friendly state most judges would feel sorry for the tenant if they had to read and abide by anything longer. No problems in 20 years with any judges.

CGB,

I'm in Michigan and my lease is 5 pages long. It includes every clause that CGB mentioned that is required by law except for the "nursing home clause" (which, from my research, is still not a required statement that must be in the lease). Can you direct me to the law that requires the nursing home clause? Again, I know of the rest that you mentioned, but not that that one needs to be specifically restated in the lease (since state law already covers it). If I have missed it, please let me know.

That being said, even if I add that clause, my Michigan lease would still only be 5 pages -- maybe 6 at the most.

So, I agree with Moshe. I don't think doing these 30+ page leases are necessarily. And certainly not because of anything Michigan specific.

- John...

I just did some looking around to double-check and the only place I'm really finding that "subsidized rental unit in Senior Citizen Housing" clause that you have is the MSU lease. Did you copy the MSU lease to start with?

Heck, even that is only 12 pages. Yours is almost 3 times that...

In any case, I still can't find the Michigan law that says that notice is required. It is the law, yes, but I can't find another law that says such notice is required to be in our leases. If you could direct me to the Michigan law stating that, I would appreciate it. Thanks!

- John...

Ok, cool, I was just checking that I hadn't missed something.

You are correct though -- we are a bit funny here -- we really do require certain parts be written in a certain size font and everything! :)

- John...

Wifey reminded me...When LLs ask me how to solve a problem I first ask "What does your lease say about this?" and they usually reply "Nothing". A management error.

I reply to many posts here with "My lease is clear:" because I took the effort to include policies about common problems.

I can copy the appropriate page, circle the specific clause with a blue highlighter, and send it to the resident.

They know I'm not being argumentative, just following the lease they signed.