Religion/Government (by WMH [NC]) Dec 6, 2018 1:38 PM|
Religion/Government (by Pmh [TX]) Dec 6, 2018 1:50 PM
Religion/Government (by Sisco [MO]) Dec 6, 2018 1:51 PM
Religion/Government (by Pat [VA]) Dec 6, 2018 1:53 PM
Religion/Government (by gevans [SC]) Dec 6, 2018 2:19 PM
Religion/Government (by plenty [MO]) Dec 6, 2018 2:28 PM
Religion/Government (by NE [PA]) Dec 6, 2018 2:42 PM
Religion/Government (by WMH [NC]) Dec 6, 2018 2:46 PM
Religion/Government (by NE [PA]) Dec 6, 2018 2:51 PM
Religion/Government (by John... [MI]) Dec 6, 2018 3:09 PM
Religion/Government (by GKARL [PA]) Dec 6, 2018 3:39 PM
Religion/Government (by WMH [NC]) Dec 6, 2018 3:56 PM
Religion/Government (by WMH [NC]) Dec 6, 2018 3:57 PM
Religion/Government (by NE [PA]) Dec 6, 2018 4:08 PM
Religion/Government (by Ed [PA]) Dec 6, 2018 4:46 PM
Religion/Government (by Paulio [PA]) Dec 6, 2018 5:11 PM
Religion/Government (by NE [PA]) Dec 6, 2018 5:22 PM
Religion/Government (by NE [PA]) Dec 6, 2018 5:27 PM
Religion/Government (by gevans [SC]) Dec 6, 2018 5:37 PM
Religion/Government (by AllyM [NJ]) Dec 6, 2018 5:50 PM
Religion/Government (by RB [MI]) Dec 6, 2018 6:14 PM
Religion/Government (by David [NC]) Dec 6, 2018 7:00 PM
Religion/Government (by Still Learning [NH]) Dec 6, 2018 7:56 PM
Religion/Government (by MMIT [VA]) Dec 6, 2018 7:56 PM
Religion/Government (by WMH [NC]) Dec 7, 2018 2:27 AM
Religion/Government (by WMH [NC]) Dec 7, 2018 3:21 AM
Religion/Government (by DJ [VA]) Dec 7, 2018 4:16 AM
Religion/Government (by myob [GA]) Dec 7, 2018 4:19 AM
Religion/Government (by WMH [NC]) Dec 7, 2018 4:24 AM
Religion/Government (by plenty [MO]) Dec 7, 2018 5:02 AM
Religion/Government (by NE [PA]) Dec 7, 2018 5:19 AM
Religion/Government (by S i d [MO]) Dec 7, 2018 5:37 AM
Religion/Government (by myob [GA]) Dec 7, 2018 5:47 AM
Religion/Government (by S i d [MO]) Dec 7, 2018 6:23 AM
Religion/Government (by J [FL]) Dec 7, 2018 7:19 AM
Religion/Government (by Bit [IN]) Dec 7, 2018 7:33 AM
Religion/Government (by Busy [WI]) Dec 7, 2018 8:15 AM
Religion/Government (by Oregon Woodsmoke [ID]) Dec 7, 2018 8:23 AM
Religion/Government (by Laura [MD]) Dec 7, 2018 10:06 AM
Religion/Government (by JB [OR]) Dec 7, 2018 12:57 PM
Religion/Government (by Jeffrey [VA]) Dec 7, 2018 1:11 PM
Religion/Government (by JB [OR]) Dec 7, 2018 1:26 PM
Religion/Government (by NE [PA]) Dec 7, 2018 1:32 PM
Religion/Government (by NE [PA]) Dec 7, 2018 1:40 PM
Religion/Government (by myob [GA]) Dec 7, 2018 3:04 PM
Religion/Government (by WMH [NC]) Dec 7, 2018 3:22 PM
Religion/Government (by WMH [NC]) Dec 7, 2018 3:30 PM
Religion/Government (by John... [MI]) Dec 7, 2018 4:53 PM
Religion/Government (by John... [MI]) Dec 7, 2018 4:58 PM
Religion/Government (by WMH [NC]) Dec 7, 2018 5:05 PM
Religion/Government (by J [FL]) Dec 7, 2018 5:10 PM
Religion/Government (by AllyM [NJ]) Dec 8, 2018 7:49 AM
Religion/Government (by John... [MI]) Dec 8, 2018 9:21 AM
Religion/Government (by JB [OR]) Dec 8, 2018 9:33 AM
Religion/Government (by WMH [NC]) Dec 8, 2018 10:34 AM
Religion/Government (by JB [OR]) Dec 8, 2018 11:13 AM
Religion/Government (by John... [MI]) Dec 8, 2018 11:31 AM
Religion/Government (by JB [OR]) Dec 8, 2018 12:30 PM
Religion/Government (by Oregon Woodsmoke [ID]) Dec 8, 2018 12:35 PM
Religion/Government (by Barb [MO]) Dec 8, 2018 1:29 PM
Religion/Government (by RB [MI]) Dec 8, 2018 1:44 PM
Religion/Government (by WMH [NC]) Dec 8, 2018 3:56 PM
Religion/Government (by NE [PA]) Dec 8, 2018 4:00 PM
Religion/Government (by WMH [NC]) Dec 8, 2018 4:12 PM
Religion/Government (by NE [PA]) Dec 8, 2018 4:18 PM
Religion/Government (by WMH [NC]) Dec 8, 2018 4:59 PM
Religion/Government (by Laura [MD]) Dec 8, 2018 5:36 PM
Religion/Government (by BRAD 20,000 [IN]) Dec 10, 2018 2:20 PM
Religion/Government (by John... [MI]) Dec 11, 2018 6:48 AM
Religion/Government (by S i d [MO]) Dec 11, 2018 7:30 AM
Religion/Government (by Busy [WI]) Dec 11, 2018 8:40 AM
Religion/Government (by WMH [NC]) Dec 11, 2018 9:44 AM
Religion/Government (by Busy [WI]) Dec 11, 2018 12:11 PM
Religion/Government (by WMH [NC]) Dec 11, 2018 1:09 PM
Religion/Government (by Judi [CA]) Dec 11, 2018 8:19 PM
Religion/Government (by Cjo’h [CT]) Dec 12, 2018 8:28 PM
Religion/Government (by cjo’h [CT]) Dec 12, 2018 8:47 PM
Religion/Government (by Busy [W]) Dec 14, 2018 7:49 AM
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Religion/Government (by WMH [NC]) Posted on: Dec 6, 2018 1:38 PM
So, as some of you know, DH and I are not religious. We are not anti-religion, we are just not religious.
We are on a a County (government) sponsored Senior Bus Trip (it's horrible, btw, won't do it again LOL!) but one of the reason it's not comfortable for us is that the (volunteer) group leader starts every day/every entry into the bus with a Christian prayer. The county employee who was SUPPOSED to lead the trip called on this retired employee, now volunteering, to help as she had a conflict.
It's really awkward for us and we find ourselves just staring into space and thinking this is what Jews must feel like at Christmas or any other religion on any other day.
What right does she have to impose this on us? We paid as much for this trip as everyone else. We did not sign up for a Christian Trip (you all know there ARE such and good for them! Please join a church group trip if this is your thing! This was a local government trip.)
NOTE: She is NOT saying SHE is saying she is praying she is admonishing us all to bow our heads and pray to her version of God. Turns out she is Methodist. What about all the Catholics, Presbyterians, etc?
As Christians, as many of you are, what do you think of this? Curious. --207.182.xx.xxx
Religion/Government (by Pmh [TX]) Posted on: Dec 6, 2018 1:50 PM
not sure how this relates to a LL board ? --104.218.xxx.xx
Religion/Government (by Sisco [MO]) Posted on: Dec 6, 2018 1:51 PM
I think that you are very touchy about listening to prayer.
W, if you have your preference then prayer would never occur in a public setting.....clearly at that point the religion of secularism will have won out, rendering secularism the official religion.
Religion/Government (by Pat [VA]) Posted on: Dec 6, 2018 1:53 PM
I think it is sad. I've been sustained by my faith and I'm not ashamed of it. As a recovering alcoholic, I am familiar with the chapter to the agnostic in the Big Book of AA. By that I mean the choosing of the Higher Power of your understanding/choice (or not).
I've been through periods in my life when I was far from God and close and for me, I choose trying to stay close. You do what you think is best, bow your head, or don't. It's still a free country, for now. I do hate to hear people complain or feel offended about it though. It rings of the "I am offended" category which I think is overdone. --71.219.xx.xxx
Religion/Government (by gevans [SC]) Posted on: Dec 6, 2018 2:19 PM
I sometimes pray in public groups. I am sometimes in other public groups where someone of a different religion prays publicly.
They have the same freedom of religion as me... I take no offence.
The constitution guarantees Americans freedom OF religion, not freedom FROM religion. Big difference.
In proper context (IMHO) we all need to learn to be a bit more tolerant of others. --173.233.xxx.xxx
Religion/Government (by plenty [MO]) Posted on: Dec 6, 2018 2:28 PM
Can you get on the bus after she is done with her pray? Maybe her praybis what keeps the bus safe, maybe it would be safe anyway. Guess it doesn't hurt. Could you pull her aside and privately ask to getbon the bus after her pray time. Sorry this is going on. I would not think she means any harm. Call the company you booked with for guidance? Sorry. Hope the food is good --99.203.xx.xx
Religion/Government (by NE [PA]) Posted on: Dec 6, 2018 2:42 PM
Bigger fish to fry.
Kind of like this forum, if it doesn't apply, let it fly. --50.107.xxx.xx
Religion/Government (by WMH [NC]) Posted on: Dec 6, 2018 2:46 PM
Gevans, FINE to pray in public groups. NOT fine to require the public group over which you have power (group leader, seating choices, etc) to pray WITH YOU in YOUR voice using YOUR words.
Hard to describe as I live in the South and those who live in the north don't run into this - at least I never did when I lived up there (for most of my life.) --207.182.xx.xxx
Religion/Government (by NE [PA]) Posted on: Dec 6, 2018 2:51 PM
WMH, you're a tough as nails landlord. This should bounce off you like nothing.
I was away from church for 20+ years and started going again maybe 4 years ago because I needed something I felt was unchanging. Especially in this insane world today. Yet, there are things at my church that I don't/won't do.
Side note: religious or not, anyone can learn some REALLY cool stuff from the book of Proverbs. Even George Carlin cites proverbs! Haha, that should mean something. --50.107.xxx.xx
Religion/Government (by John... [MI]) Posted on: Dec 6, 2018 3:09 PM
I am religious -- very involved in my local church, pray before meals, read my scriptures, and so on... And I feel like this isn't right and you shouldn't have to deal with it. Mainly because you said that this was a "County (government) sponsored Senior Bus Trip".
If it was a bus trip chartered by some other private entity that happened to have a religious organizer, then that might be different. But, in this case, it sounds like you signed up for some government-entity offered bus trip, right? In that case, there shouldn't be someone telling anyone to bow their heads for anything.
Now, whether or not it is worth it to get riled up about it is another issue. I would simply enjoy the rest of the trip as best as possible and then, after it was over, made report back to the original person and explain that you thought it was inappropriate.
But, yes, I agree with you -- that isn't how it should work and I don't think people telling you to just grow a thicker skin about it is the best answer really.
Religion/Government (by GKARL [PA]) Posted on: Dec 6, 2018 3:39 PM
Speaking of an imposition, in the Illinois state capital building there's been a Satanic statute erected and displayed with other holiday decorations. This was done under the premise of "equal rights". This is where a line ought to be drawn. I'd rather see nothing up than see the devil being promoted and worshiped.
As an aside,sometimes I think some of these people who pray in public are simply putting on a show. A prayer can be just as effective if done in silence. I'm far more impressed by how people treat someone than an open display of how religious you are.
"This holiday season, the Illinois State Capitol is celebrating both Santa and Satan.
A statue designed and funded by the Satanic Temple of Chicago is on display in the statehouse in Springfield along with a Christmas tree, Nativity scene, and a menorah.
The resin sculpture, which the Satanic Temple has dubbed a "Snaketivity," depicts a hand holding an apple, with a snake wrapped around it. The arm and hand are 18 inches tall, said Dave Druker, the press secretary for the Illinois Secretary of State's office, which maintains the capitol building.
The figure rests on a 4-foot tall base that reads "Knowledge is the greatest gift."
When Chicago's Satanic Temple announced the design on Instagram last month, the group said they were "bringing a message to the Illinois state capital that religious freedom means freedom of representation for ALL religions... not just the ones that don't offend Christians."
The group launched a GoFundMe page with the goal of raising $1,500 to cover construction, transportation and installation costs.
"Please consider what you may do to help us bring Satan to Springfield!," the page read. The group raised $1,700." --209.122.xx.xxx
Religion/Government (by WMH [NC]) Posted on: Dec 6, 2018 3:56 PM
NE, I spent a great deal of time in my youth "seeking" religion. My great-grandmother was a Christian Scientist from England, my grandmother was an Atheist, my father taught only "The Golden Rule." As a teen, I went to Catechism, had meetings ON MY OWN with priests, rabbis and preachers. I went to meetings with Jehovah's Witness Friends, and I bet I was the ONLY one of my friends who ever actually READ the entire Bible. My favorite piece of musical theater is Jesus Christ Superstar. After all that, I decided I am "not religous."
John/MI, thank you. My point exactly. Imagine what those who think I should let this roll off my back would say if they were asked to recite from the Torah or Quran or a piece of Satanic literature to get on a bus to go visit an historical city with a group of people unrelated except by georgraphy (county residents.) --207.182.xx.xxx
Religion/Government (by WMH [NC]) Posted on: Dec 6, 2018 3:57 PM
NE, if I had a God, he would be George Carlin LOL! --207.182.xx.xxx
Religion/Government (by NE [PA]) Posted on: Dec 6, 2018 4:08 PM
Ya George Carlin is awesome. Try Bill Hicks, especially his "Free Bird" video on YouTube. It will knock your socks off.
On the note of Quran or Torah, ya I'd be bothered by that in my town. But not if I was in Israel or Baghdad. Although all of them can offer good and bad. I don't think any are flawless. At their core, I think they're all talking about pretty much the same thing. I just do what works for me. --50.107.xxx.xx
Religion/Government (by Ed [PA]) Posted on: Dec 6, 2018 4:46 PM
I'm with you WMH, I'm not religious either and I'm very upset with those that try to force it into government. I would also be offended if I were on a government bus trip and someone started a prayer and insisted everyone be part of it. I would have spoken up as that feels like they are trying to impose their beliefs on others. If it was someones private organization that has a religious belief I would let it slide. --71.112.xxx.xxx
Religion/Government (by Paulio [PA]) Posted on: Dec 6, 2018 5:11 PM
They are fortunate that you are polite. You very well could have chosen to exercise YOUR 1st Amendment right (loudly and obnoxiously). There’s nothing that says your only 2 options are to pray or sit there quietly. I wonder what would have happened if during the prayer you got on your phone and started yucking it up with a friend. --74.47.xxx.xxx
Religion/Government (by NE [PA]) Posted on: Dec 6, 2018 5:22 PM
How old was the person? --50.107.xxx.xx
Religion/Government (by NE [PA]) Posted on: Dec 6, 2018 5:27 PM
I just re-read your original post. I would worry about this even less. This is a volunteer that filled in for the county person that was supposed to do it. The county person may not even know it happened. --50.107.xxx.xx
Religion/Government (by gevans [SC]) Posted on: Dec 6, 2018 5:37 PM
I have to agree that forcing participation crosses the line. --173.233.xxx.xxx
Religion/Government (by AllyM [NJ]) Posted on: Dec 6, 2018 5:50 PM
I would tolerate some poor old soul who volunteered to guide your trip. Three years ago I prayed and asked for a little dog with pointy ears and a pointy nose. Two weeks later I saw a little dog running loose on a four lane road. I caught him and no one claimed him and YES, he has a very pointy little nose and pointy ears. They I prayed and asked for a scratch off lottery ticket with some money on it and I got one with a hundred bucks on it. I gave the money to a woman whose dog needing surgery. Then I prayed and asked for a cheap subscription to a magazine. Within a month a letter came to my house with my maiden name on it and offered me that magazine for a dollar an issue. And then, I prayed and asked for someone to come out of industry and run for President and save our country. All of this is 100% true and sometimes I can't believe it myself. WMH you are missing out. --73.248.xxx.xxx
Religion/Government (by RB [MI]) Posted on: Dec 6, 2018 6:14 PM
When the Bullets and Bombs are flying,
there's no such thing
as an Atheist in a Foxhole. --184.53.x.xx
Religion/Government (by David [NC]) Posted on: Dec 6, 2018 7:00 PM
It's always hard to voice a minority opinion but here goes. Flame suit on.
It's offensive to have someone's religion shoved down your throat but as you point out this is the south and the majority are always doing it to the minority. Can't tell you how many prayers I had to listen to in public schools - every darn sporting event, every darn awards event, and every community public event has to start with a prayer.
I don't feel like they are doing out of spite. It's more like a cultural norm but you always get the feeling you are on the outside if you aren't one of the special people.
Now every time I hear a prayer I just replay the scene from Talladega Nights -The Ballad of Ricky Bobby in my head. Sweet Baby Jesus. --65.188.xxx.xxx
Religion/Government (by Still Learning [NH]) Posted on: Dec 6, 2018 7:56 PM
Volunteers are harder to deal with than an employee. I think many lines are being crossed especially if you are being told to bow your head and pray. On the other hand I think some times our country swings too far toward politically correct and erasing religion in that you shouldn’t wish people a Merry Christmas in case they don’t celebrate it. I am Methodist and I would most likely not pray aloud but if I did I would never force or expect someone to join me. I also don’t think God cares whether your head is bowed or not, eyes open or not. My relationship with God is just that, my relationship. Hopefully one day we can move closer to respect and tolerance of all not matter what they celebrate or don’t celebrate. We all have more in common than differences which is similar with religion as well and yet we choose to focus more on the differences. --24.61.xxx.xx
Religion/Government (by MMIT [VA]) Posted on: Dec 6, 2018 7:56 PM
What an interesting discussion!
I do not have any answers. I do not know what is right.
Are people's rights violated because there was a prayer on the bus? If there was not a prayer on the bus, would that have violated people's rights?
The President is sworn into office by placing his hand on a Bible. Are people's rights violated by the Bible?
Why is a chaplain on the Congressional staff?
God is mentioned 4 times in the Declaration of Independence.
God is not mentioned in the US Constitution, but, is mentioned at least once in all 50 state constitutions (for a total of 200 times in the state constitutions).
Where is the correct balance between church and state?
Aren't you glad we live in a free country where we can have this discussion! --70.188.xx.xx
Religion/Government (by WMH [NC]) Posted on: Dec 7, 2018 2:27 AM
I too was ready to discount it because of her age ("a retired volunteer") but then she mentioned she's retired FROM THE COUNTY GOVERNMENT and that she is 61. So am I. Isn't it funny I considered her a little old lady? --207.182.xx.xxx
Religion/Government (by WMH [NC]) Posted on: Dec 7, 2018 3:21 AM
The most truly religious people I know have their own conversations with their god and don't have to assume others agree or insist others play along, or care actually. They know what they know.
The original prayer was inside the Senior Center, yes the actual Director was there, and it was done like this:
"Before we board the bus, let's all bow our heads and pray..." and then a (too-long) rambling prayer for everyone and his brother. It set the tone for the trip for me..."Oh oh we are in the wrong place with the wrong group." --207.182.xx.xxx
Religion/Government (by DJ [VA]) Posted on: Dec 7, 2018 4:16 AM
I am a person with a deep Christian faith, that sustains me daily. I do not say I am religious, because to me that means following a set of rituals that may or may not do anyone any good. My faith is the very core of my existence and molds my entire worldview.
I think the leader is in error, even if her intentions are to be helpful. Only because it is a county-sponsored trip, as has already been said. I think it would be quite appropriate for you to politely approach her and simply say that you know she probably means well, but since it is not a church-sponsored trip,
she may have not realized there are others present who do not share the same faith, and are uncomfortable with common worship in public. (There may very well be others who feel the same way, who will be glad you said something.)
Hopefully, she can understand that there are different groups - even within Christianity - that do not publicly worship together, due to differences in doctrines of what they believe such as how literally they take the Bible. The most obvious example is everyone knows Catholics do not allow others to take communion in their church, and everyone seems OK with that. If she doesn't get it, or continues anyway, then remember that this great country gives you the right to not participate - and you are free to daydream about anything you want during that time.
I also thank you for your kind tolerance, as I believe a key component to a peaceful society is when we act respectfully to one another - no matter what we may or may not have in common.
Religion/Government (by myob [GA]) Posted on: Dec 7, 2018 4:19 AM
It wss much more fun when we were trashing tenants!!!! --99.103.xxx.xxx
Religion/Government (by WMH [NC]) Posted on: Dec 7, 2018 4:24 AM
Oh we can always go back to that, MYOB. I just don't have one to trash right now as I am on a darn BUS TRIP LOL! --207.182.xx.xxx
Religion/Government (by plenty [MO]) Posted on: Dec 7, 2018 5:02 AM
How do you suppose out of all the bus tours in the world you got on that one?
Where are you I'll come and get you. --99.203.xx.xx
Religion/Government (by NE [PA]) Posted on: Dec 7, 2018 5:19 AM
Maybe you got that bus tour for a reason? --50.107.xxx.xx
Religion/Government (by S i d [MO]) Posted on: Dec 7, 2018 5:37 AM
I really appreciate DJ's response.
A serious of random thoughts on the matter...
I too am not "religious" in the sense that I participate (and/or force others to participate) in ritual, group prayer, etc. But I am a Christian, proudly. People should know that based on how I behave and how I treat others, not on how loudly or long I pray.
The Bible says not to pray loudly and long on the street corners like the Pharisee where others can see you, but rather to go into your room, close the door, and be alone with God. On that basis alone, I think this lady probably needed to rethink her strategy. But I don't think she was being malicious. Just tone deaf to the situation she was in.
Somewhere, public prayer became a cultural norm. I not exactly sure when or how. Probably during the middle ages when Govt and religion became intertwined. It's been handed down over hundreds of years as "the norm" to the point its like grits and biscuits with gravy.
It's slowly dying away too, if that's any consolation...
Would I be offended if a Muslim got up in front of a bus and asked us all to pray towards Mecca? Nah. Probably would think it's kind of interesting. I enjoy learning more about people of all backgrounds, and I have very limited experience with Muslims. If I were asked to participate, I'd politely ignore it.
Would I be offended if a Satanist led a 'prayer' to the Dark Father Below ...? Well, that depends. Seems like some Satanists are more interested in being shocking and outrageous antagonists of other religions vs. promoting their own religion. But as long as they were not spouting off about how dumb Christians were, I'd probably be okay with it.
I've been in the military for 22 years as a bandsman. We have played hundreds of ceremonies sending troops off to foreign countries and welcoming them home. I have played at Governor's funerals and dedications of public facilities. There's almost always as chaplain who prays to God. Sometimes he invokes the name of God, sometimes of Jesus, etc. Never have heard one invoke Allah or Vishnu or George Carlin. I have no doubt in my mind there have been thousands of instances like yours where a person who does not believe in the Judeo-Christian God was asked to "bow his head for prayer." Soldiers follow orders. Out of faith, duty or courtesy. Never heard any protests.
Should there be prayers on a Govt bus trip? I'm neutral. If there are, great. If not, also great. I say my own prayers. It probably is in poor taste to assume everyone is good with saying a group prayer, though, but other than poor taste I don't think she was violating anyone's 1st Amendment rights. My guess is she grew up with prayer everywhere around her at every group gathering and this led her to make an (incorrect) assumption based on her experience.
DJ's advice is good: a simple conversation with her would probably be in order.
If someone is loud or obnoxious on a bus trip, be it religious, political, or which southern chicken recipe is the best, I have Bose noise canceling headphones so I can listen to a podcast or enjoy the silence. --173.20.xxx.xxx
Religion/Government (by myob [GA]) Posted on: Dec 7, 2018 5:47 AM
Sid did you say "random" thoughts?
Gee's US you could use that for Sunday services..... from the pulpit. --99.103.xxx.xxx
Religion/Government (by S i d [MO]) Posted on: Dec 7, 2018 6:23 AM
Myob, you are too kind regarding my (lack of) preaching ability. But I'll take a compliment any time someone cares to toss it my way. *grins --173.20.xxx.xxx
Religion/Government (by J [FL]) Posted on: Dec 7, 2018 7:19 AM
This is not government, but I had an experience recently where I had to go to an ER at a hospital here run by Seventh Day Adventists here. I was handed religious documents and also questioned verbally about my religious faith.
It threw me for a loop and I didn't really think it was appropriate, although it's their hospital and they can do what they want. --72.188.xxx.xxx
Religion/Government (by Bit [IN]) Posted on: Dec 7, 2018 7:33 AM
I've been in other countries with very little Christian presence and was not bothered at all by witnessing other religious activities and prayers in public going on all around me, the majority of people in the area practiced Buddhism so it made sense and was expected.
The majority of people in the USA have Christian beliefs so I would not let it bother you, its pretty common especially down south.
I get what you are saying though and I can't say that I agree with a forced prayer on a public bus even though I have Christian beliefs.
Did I read that right that she expected you to bow your head and pray? Maybe she just incorrectly assumed everyone was a Christian but that is where I would draw the line and tell them I don't want to participate. --74.130.xxx.xxx
Religion/Government (by Busy [WI]) Posted on: Dec 7, 2018 8:15 AM
I am deeply bothered that government gets involved in senior bus trips. Isn’t that something the PRIVATE sector does very, very well? The waste of taxpayer money to entertain people is horrendous, imo.
Government should ONLY be in the business of providing what the private sector does not. Militia, roads, etc eternal. In my state we have vehicle emissions test required on our vehicles every few years. A good thing, IMO. Number of cars spewing obnoxious fumes has gone down. Anyway, we used to go to government facilities to have our emissions testing done, usually one site per county. That was changed, now we go to any number of local businesses to get an emissions test. The local business may offer repair services right then and there, there is still a bit of state government oversight ( weights and measures comes to mind.) My point is, the work of emissions testing is done by any number of local businesses, with a wide variety of business models. Very few government workers required.
All these darn make-work programs for gubbmint employees drive me absolutely bonkers. I don’t want ANY gubbmint worker being paid to entertain people. Gubbmint CROWDS OUT the private sector who can offer the same services. In my community, the government offers programs for seniors, children families, in Direct competition with YMCA, churches, youth groups, dance studios. Government tries to take over those non-profits and private sector groups whenever it can, just like it tries to take over landlording in many areas. It’s a move to expand SOCIALISM. Makes me sick! --70.92.xxx.xxx
Religion/Government (by Oregon Woodsmoke [ID]) Posted on: Dec 7, 2018 8:23 AM
If it really upsets you, send a polite letter of protest to whatever branch of the government that is sponsoring the trip. Let them know how uncomfortable it is for those who belong to different religions.
The woman is a volunteer. They are probably lucky to get anyone to volunteer and willing to take whatever they can get.
I tend to respect other people's religions, so I can be quiet while they pray. But it is uncomfortable to be forced into a different religion's prayers, so I understand WMH's objection to it.
Religion/Government (by Laura [MD]) Posted on: Dec 7, 2018 10:06 AM
I hear you & have similar feelings. But I pick my battles in life, this one does not meet the threshold to exert any energy. --108.51.xxx.xxx
Religion/Government (by JB [OR]) Posted on: Dec 7, 2018 12:57 PM
Sounds like you need to move to the west coast or the NE. There are plenty of Christian bashers everywhere who share your distain for religion in those areas (much more so than in the Bible belt).
Headphones work great for anyone not wanting to listen to another individual (I can even tune out my wife this way if I choose to).
But I prefer not to be another snowflake and to let others be. I'm so sick of hearing how everyone is offended by everything. Now they are taking 1940's Christmas songs that radio stations are banning because one caller complains that they are offensive. Never mind the rap and hip-hop songs that speak of things I would never, ever want my son, daughter (or my own mother) to have to hear.
Most of the Jews that I know are not offended by someone wishing them a Merry Christmas. They always say, "Thank you" or politely express that they celebrate Hanukkah.
As for Christians, we are told in the Bible to spread the Good Word. I'm sorry you don't like to hear that. Personally, I lived a godless life for nearly 50 years, but have now seen the light...and I'm very thankful for that. I wouldn't be surprised to hear someone facing death to suddenly change her mind and "find religion."
If my faith turns out to be the wrong decision and their is no God, then I can live with that. If your decision is wrong and their is a God, I would not want to be in your shoes.
As for this topic, it should definitely have been labeled OT! --24.20.xxx.xxx
Religion/Government (by Jeffrey [VA]) Posted on: Dec 7, 2018 1:11 PM
Hi WMH, As you probably noticed, at the beginning of each my Conventions and Boot Camps, I take a brief moment to publicly give Thanks to God for another opportunity and the ability he has given me to hold the event and be of service. Because I consider you a friend, I sincerely would like to know if you find that offensive. Let me know now, because I'm looking forward to seeing you again at the upcoming Landlord Retreat:)
The question also is for any others who wish to share who has attended one of our events. --72.214.xx.xxx
Religion/Government (by JB [OR]) Posted on: Dec 7, 2018 1:26 PM
I certainly hope you will not change your talks because a few people might be offended.
I am offended by things every day; by people with visible tattoos, yawning with their mouths open and uncovered, double dipping in the ranch dip, those wearing pajamas to the store and coffeeshop, etc. I doubt I would ever say anything to them and I'm sure I do things to offend people.
It's what makes us humans. When we all try to appease everyone we will please no one.
Please don't change a thing. JMHO --24.20.xxx.xxx
Religion/Government (by NE [PA]) Posted on: Dec 7, 2018 1:32 PM
I'm not offended by it Jeffrey. I hope the complaints of one (WMH or not) doesn't change it for all others.
As adults, we need to be able to tune in and tune out as needed.
We have to put our big boy pants on and stop trying to white wash everything in this country. That statement I'm sure could make a snowflake melt! :)
And JB nailed it by being sick of people being offended by so much stuff. My wife is someone of a bleeding heart and said the other day the people are running out of things to get offended about. PETA labeling hundreds of years old slogans as something similar to racism and radio stations not playing "Baby is cold outside." Get freaking real. Talk about taking things out of context.
Have to draw the line somewhere. --50.107.xxx.xx
Religion/Government (by NE [PA]) Posted on: Dec 7, 2018 1:40 PM
I love these kinds of discussions by the way. I've spent time on both sides and can argue for both positions.
A question I can pose to anyone who doesn't believe in a higher power over mankind guiding our lives either directly or indirectly would be, "Why follow any rules at all?
If you don't believe in any "God", then why even put any faith in the orders of men? As fallable as they are. --50.107.xxx.xx
Religion/Government (by myob [GA]) Posted on: Dec 7, 2018 3:04 PM
My thanks is and has always been to give thanks to any and all who have looked over me. Don't think it has to have a name (God). I bow my head to thank ALL and continue on with my wish for others to have had the same support. Family God whoever it is-- no name required kinda fill in the blank sort of thing but in your head not necessarily out loud.
In the case of our touring friend-- I would say you need to let your feelings be known to the orator. Not that it offends you but that you are uncomfortable for yourself but mainly for others. --99.103.xxx.xxx
Religion/Government (by WMH [NC]) Posted on: Dec 7, 2018 3:22 PM
Jeffrey, your public thanks is not at all offensive to me. Just as you express your knowledge and opinions about tenant management, safe housing, fair housing, you are expressing your knowledge and opinion about your faith. AND about how it has helped you and your family.
Yet you do not ask US - the audience - to bow our heads while you preach at us, and require we all agree with you. You just simply state your faith and your thanks to God. It's a totally different experience.
This woman did require several times throughout the trip - and never when one could walk away or do something else or even just ignore it without looking rude - that we all were supposed to bow our heads while she prayed rambling prayers. As if in church.
It's not the same thing at all. I hope I did not offend YOU with this thread.
But I think it does relate back to landlording.
If I were to require a tenant to pray with me as I handed them the keys, that would be totally inappropriate unless I knew for SURE they would welcome such a gesture. Even then, it's tricky ground.
And basically that is what she was doing: requiring us to pray with her before we could depart on our trip, or get on the bus, or get off the bus, or go home.
It was not the profession of faith, it was the assumption that all there shared her particular version of faith and were required to verbalize it in order to participate. --50.82.xxx.xx
Religion/Government (by WMH [NC]) Posted on: Dec 7, 2018 3:30 PM
For all those who used the word "offend" please note I was NOT "offended." I thought her use of prayer in this instance was inappropriate, not "offensive." She had no idea who was on that bus! There were 50 of us. To assume 50 people shared her exact version of any faith, particularly the many versions of the Christian faith (she was Methodist) was off-putting.
It's pretty darn hard to "offend" me. Some here might have noticed LOL.
I am not going to complain. I just decided to vent here. --50.82.xxx.xx
Religion/Government (by John... [MI]) Posted on: Dec 7, 2018 4:53 PM
Yeah -- see -- I think some people are missing that there is a BIG difference between someone wanting to say a prayer before a trip -- and that same someone INSTRUCTING EVERYONE THERE to bow their heads for that prayer.
I have no problem with people wanting to pray at functions or before their dinner or whatever. But telling the people there that they are also expected to do the same is a very different situation. Put that situation on a government-related ANYTHING and now you've crossed a line. It doesn't mean someone is a "snowflake" or "easily offended" for pointing out that line shouldn't be crossed.
Religion/Government (by John... [MI]) Posted on: Dec 7, 2018 4:58 PM
Also, JB, I agree that we Christians are supposed to "spread the Good Word." But, like Sid said, we're supposed to do that through our actions, interactions, and attitude toward others. Not by trying to force people to follow Him -- or by saying frequent, public prayers to show our "faith." In fact, as said above, we've been specifically instructed in the scriptures to NOT do that.
Sorry, but I don't think this lady was "spreading the Good Word." Instead, she really does sound more like the Pharisees praying in public just to show their "faith" to others.
Religion/Government (by WMH [NC]) Posted on: Dec 7, 2018 5:05 PM
Thanks, John. --50.82.xxx.xx
Religion/Government (by J [FL]) Posted on: Dec 7, 2018 5:10 PM
I think John (MI) hit the nail on the head. It was very presumptuous of that person to do that on a bus full of strangers. Not something I would personally make a federal case over but I can see where WMH is coming from. --72.188.xxx.xxx
Religion/Government (by AllyM [NJ]) Posted on: Dec 8, 2018 7:49 AM
Well, here's a thought. There have been a lot of bus crashes lately and people have been badly injured or died. Maybe she was just invoking any good spirits she can to keep that bus upright and on the road. --73.248.xxx.xxx
Religion/Government (by John... [MI]) Posted on: Dec 8, 2018 9:21 AM
She could do that just the same (or probably BETTER) by praying privately and not trying to force others to do so who otherwise would not be interested at that point in their lives.
Our God in Heaven gave us Free Will -- the right to choose to follow or not. I don't think he'd be pleased by anyone trying to force others to follow him. That's not conversion, it's coercion.
Religion/Government (by JB [OR]) Posted on: Dec 8, 2018 9:33 AM
I keep hearing the word "force" thrown around here over and over. I missed the part where this "senior, volunteer" held a gun and forced full participation.
I am quite certain that if she felt anyone wanted to ignore her request they would do just that, ignore it. NO PENALTY. NO PUBLIC SHAMING. NO GUILLOTINE. Give me a break John. --24.20.xxx.xxx
Religion/Government (by WMH [NC]) Posted on: Dec 8, 2018 10:34 AM
JB/OR, sorry but you weren't there. No gun, no, but the holding of the microphone and saying, "Before we get on the bus, let's bow our heads and pray..." and then a long rambling prayer. "Before we get off the bus, let's..." (Standing blocking the way each time...) "Before we get home, let's pray..."
That would be perfectly appropriate if this was a church-sponsored bus trip. In fact it would be EXPECTED.
This was a county-sponsored bus trip. Not a FREE one, just set up and arranged by the County through the Senior Center. We paid for it just like everyone else.
Ironically, almost every job I had in my life was with a religion-based company. I worked for a Methodist Travel Agency that arranged tours of the Holy Land and England (John Wesley's stomping grounds) and also for WordPerfect, which was a heavily Mormon-based organization. In fact I was the only non-Mormon sales rep in the early days.
I don't have a problem with people expressing their faith. I have a problem with the way this was done, pure and simple. --50.82.xxx.xx
Religion/Government (by JB [OR]) Posted on: Dec 8, 2018 11:13 AM
Okay, you got me in agreement now. This woman should be turned in to the ACLU for violating your rights. She should be criminally prosecuted and never again be allowed to volunteer for work outside of Church activities.
I'm certain she can be taught a lesson by the civil rights groups, the news media, and anyone else who would like to make an example of her. We can make her remaining life a living h-ll.
She will rue the day she volunteered for this bus trip. This is a great example of why we need to bring back public stoning. The only certainty here is that no matter what punishment she receives we know it will not be enough for her egregious indiscretions. --24.20.xxx.xxx
Religion/Government (by John... [MI]) Posted on: Dec 8, 2018 11:31 AM
It's funny that you want to call people "snowflakes" when YOU are the only one here that is really blowing this out of proportion. You're the only one getting riled up. No one is talking about anyone forcing anyone at gun point or violating their rights or anything that harsh really. It was just a discussion about it being "probably inappropriate" at best. You're the only one saying, even sarcastically, that the person should be prosecuted or even "taught a lesson."
It's just really weird to me that you act like others are getting all riled up as "snowflakes" but no one else is really freaking out like that. We're just having a discussion and you act like anyone saying this was "maybe inappropriate" are trying the burn her at the stake.
Can you not discuss this without freaking out? This seems like a "pot calling the kettle black" situation. YOU'RE the only one freaking out about it.
Religion/Government (by JB [OR]) Posted on: Dec 8, 2018 12:30 PM
LOL. I didn't know I was "freaking out." I'm glad you told me.
I thought it was a discussion as well. It seemed to me that you were the one blowing it out of proportion with lines like, "...trying to force people to follow Him" and …" I don't think he'd be pleased by anyone trying to force others to follow Him. That's not conversion, it's coercion." The leap from leading a prayer to forcing people to follow God...perfect straw man setup.
Again, you are also not likely to understand either. You also do not reside in the Bible belt.
My original point to ignore the "problem" I suppose is simply too big a hurdle. My sympathies for your delicate sensibilities.
My point is that this entire subject is a non-starter. That is was not something to get riled up about or even bothered by and therefore didn't even warrant the original discussion.
Whether you say it or someone else does; Christian persecution is alive and well in this country (and throughout the world). Seems quite strange since this once great country was founded on Christian principles and our currency even states, "In God we trust." The reason the current president was elected was largely because of those who felt political correctness is run amok.
Perhaps when we have removed all of the Christmas symbols, all the Christmas music is banned from the airwaves, Confederate statues have been crushed back into sand, our current currency is burned and replaced with no mention of a diety we will be able to proclaim once and for all, "Now all is right with the world."
Religion/Government (by Oregon Woodsmoke [ID]) Posted on: Dec 8, 2018 12:35 PM
JB(OR), way too much overreaction. --174.216.x.xxx
Religion/Government (by Barb [MO]) Posted on: Dec 8, 2018 1:29 PM
I get where WMH is coming from.
In August of 2001 I began teaching in a High school of a neighboring town. A few days after Sept 11, the local ministerial alliance held a short memorial service at school. It was about 10 minutes long, and over the school intercom system. No one complained. We were all in shock.
In May of 02 the local ministerial alliance held a service on a Sunday afternoon to pray for the future of all the grads. I was told I was expected to attend. I had a family occasion planned that had been on the calendar since the previous November. I had never heard of a church service for high school graduation for a public school. I refused to attend. I was told it was part of my “other duties as assigned”. I asked if the church service was sponsored by the school? The principal looked uncomfortable and said “No, but it is still an expectation.” I responded that since it was not a school event, but was sponsored by the ministerial alliance, I declined to attend and had other plans for the day. When he started to insist my attendance again, I explained that requiring my attendance at a church service implied that the school, which is a division of the government, was violating the first amendment and did he really want to go there?
Now all that said, a few years later when a letter came to the school demanding they cease opening graduation with a prayer, I recommended that the senior class be allowed to vote by secret ballot regarding opening with a prayer. The senior class voted 100% to open with a prayer, and the tradition was that one of their own give the invocation, just as one of their own speak during graduation. It was their graduation. Having an invocation that the students wanted was, to me, totally different than a prayer service sponsored by the ministerial alliance. Besides, the letter regarding the prayer had come from a group outside the state. Graduation is for the students and their parents. If all the graduates want an invocation and voted in secret on it, it is their occasion.
The fact that thIs individual decided that everyone needed to pray with her seems more like me being told I had to attend a prayer service. To me, Methodist is pretty garden variety Christian, but refusing to allow anyone off the bus until her prayer had been said is kind of creepy. We didn’t even do that when we took trips with the kids when they attended Catholic School. --64.251.xxx.xxx
Religion/Government (by RB [MI]) Posted on: Dec 8, 2018 1:44 PM
JB, the Silent Majority hears ya.
Religion/Government (by WMH [NC]) Posted on: Dec 8, 2018 3:56 PM
I appreciate the frank discussion here about this issue! Thanks!
JB we have discussions about non-important and even inane stuff here all the time. It's part of this personality of this board. Which is why we are all here.
But, btw, you have been taught incorrect history. Our country was not founded on Christian principles. It was founded on the concept of FREEDOM of religion. Freedom to choose and practice one's religion (or lack thereof) without government interference.
Check it out, it's in the Constitution. --50.82.xxx.xx
Religion/Government (by NE [PA]) Posted on: Dec 8, 2018 4:00 PM
Yet drafted by many with faith. --50.32.xxx.xx
Religion/Government (by WMH [NC]) Posted on: Dec 8, 2018 4:12 PM
FAITH that if left to their own devices, the government didn't need to control the Church, NE.
I have read a lot about the Church of England, the Catholic Church, the Crusades, the Inquisition, Islam, etc. Religion is actually a big deal in my life and always has been, now that I think of it LOL! I used to go to Catechism AND Hebrew School, back in the day. I took private study with a priest ON MY OWN.
Government at any level needs to stay out of private citizen's lives. --50.82.xxx.xx
Religion/Government (by NE [PA]) Posted on: Dec 8, 2018 4:18 PM
One aspect of the separation of church and state that really hasn't been discussed is that the church/churches equally benefit from the separation. Certain countries church and state are fused. It's this religion, practiced this way and that's it. And some will KILL YOU if you do otherwise.
So churches benefit in this country by this constitutional protection of keeping the government out of their affairs as well. It wasn't just to keep the church out of our government. Except there are practices in government with church/belief influence that probably aren't going anywhere.
Eviction court: Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Deed: On such and such a date in the year of our Lord, etc.
Even our time: 2018 AD.
All 3 of those reference a Christian god, not Buddha, not Allah.
I think your bus your lady was over the top. However, I don't think you'll be exempt from experiencing it again in awkward situations.
How many times has the lady done it? --50.32.xxx.xx
Religion/Government (by WMH [NC]) Posted on: Dec 8, 2018 4:59 PM
I suspect "my lady" has done it on every trip on which she has been involved, either as a County employee or a volunteer. --50.82.xxx.xx
Religion/Government (by Laura [MD]) Posted on: Dec 8, 2018 5:36 PM
Welcome to the south. --108.51.xxx.xxx
Religion/Government (by BRAD 20,000 [IN]) Posted on: Dec 10, 2018 2:20 PM
How nice someone is willing to pray for the safety of everyone, even non-believers.
My brother the airline captain has a sticker on his flight bag:
“In the event of engine failure the ban on prayer is temporarily lifted!”
Religion/Government (by John... [MI]) Posted on: Dec 11, 2018 6:48 AM
Brad: Praying FOR everyone is very different than telling non-believers to pray. I think that is an important point that some seem to be missing.
I pray for people that might be non-believers fairly often. But I don't tell them to bow their heads and pray with me if they are non-believers.
Again, I just don't think that is the best way to share the gospel or cause conversion to Christ.
But, to each their own, I guess. If you think that is what He would have you do, then so be it. I simply disagree that it is what He would have us do.
Religion/Government (by S i d [MO]) Posted on: Dec 11, 2018 7:30 AM
Interestingly, aside from the instances of the two "feedings of the thousands" incident where Jesus gave thanks, we have no record in the Bible where he prays publicly. We might make assumptions that he did while growing up and as a young man based on what we know of traditional Jewish practices of the day, but simply looking at the 4 Gospels in the NT canon there is no indication he ever led a prayer service, asked God to bless the Govt, a meeting, a school, or a military veteran's day, or any of the other public events we have prayer at today.
Rather, he often went off to solitary places to pray or he prayed with his closely chosen 12 disciples.
I dunno everything there is to know, but if we who claim the title "Christian" are seeking to be imitators of his Earthly acts, maybe that's worth considering.
Again, I'm not personally offended if anyone of any religion chooses to pray in public or asks me to pray with them. If it's not my faith, I simply refrain from it. No one can force me to pray or not pray. But if you steal my chocolate chip cookies my attitude will definitely rise to "miffed" status. Just ask: I'll share! ;-) --173.20.xxx.xxx
Religion/Government (by Busy [WI]) Posted on: Dec 11, 2018 8:40 AM
Amen about the chocolate chip cookie! Preach it, fellow morsel lover! --70.92.xxx.xxx
Religion/Government (by WMH [NC]) Posted on: Dec 11, 2018 9:44 AM
John, again, exactly. Praying FOR someone is your free choice and the exercise of your god-given free will, according to the Bible.
Forcing an entire group to pray - or, in this case, to ask everyone present to bow their head and wait while SHE prayed out loud at us all - was inappropriate. You have to consider the time and place.
Jeffrey, I realized exactly why your professing your faith in no way "bothers" or "offends" me: you are not the government. You do not have any control over me or mine, and we are there "in your house" quite willingly. You are free to do whatever you want in that context: you are the actual boss. However you do not ask us to do as you do or think as you think, you simply speak your mind.
AND again, you are not the government. --50.82.xxx.xx
Religion/Government (by Busy [WI]) Posted on: Dec 11, 2018 12:11 PM
Just curious, what did sshe say when you quietly told her you’d rather not be asked to participate in her religious activity? --172.58.xxx.xx
Religion/Government (by WMH [NC]) Posted on: Dec 11, 2018 1:09 PM
No way was I going to address that on the bus trip, Busy! The gossip that would ensue was more than I cared to deal with.
We just decided that particular group/host was not for us. --50.82.xxx.xx
Religion/Government (by Judi [CA]) Posted on: Dec 11, 2018 8:19 PM
Jewish person here. Your bus story reminds me of the time I was hired to provide piano music for a particularly high-end, outrageously-expensive-per-plate dinner which featured a certain wine from the vineyard where it was held. The owner of the winery did EXACTLY what your tour-lady did; started the dinner off with lengthy prayers asking all to bow their heads and pray to 'their lord', Jesus Christ. Well, the place was completely full and there were enough Steinbergs and Moskowitzes to fill 3/4 of that dining hall; the rest of the folks were of unknown spiritual beliefs. The look on the majority of faces in that room was priceless. These folks paid A LOT of money to be served a boutique wine with an expensive dinner in a faux medieval castle; not hold a religious service of ANY kind. The discomfort in that room was palpable and cast a pall on the rest of the evening. It didn't help that the wine sucked and the catered food was C-. Shortly after, that winery had to be sold because it could not pay for itself.
I am not the least bit offended at other people's prayers...for themselves, and preferably silently. Our dear neighbors, both devout Christians, pray at every meal. We dine with them a lot both at home and in public; I'm happy to join hands with them. When the 'Jesus' part comes up, I just substitute the word 'love' quietly in my head; something I've done from the time I was a little girl visiting churches, mosques, temples, et al. I was raised to be accepting and respectful of others' beliefs and guidelines. I LOVE spirituality but for me, the only acceptable name is LOVE. I don't say it out loud, I don't make a big deal out of it, I just think it in my head when someone assigns it a different monniker.
That said, if someone on a bus held me hostage with a lengthy invocation to ANYONE or ANYTHING over and over again, I'd be irritated as h*ll. I WOULD say something after the first two or three. I'd take that well-meaning lady aside and thank her for her well-meaning fill-in participation on the bus trip, and thank her NOT to assume that constant praying to a particular entity is acceptable or welcome to everyone. And then thank her again for considering doing it differently in the future. Thank, thank, thank. But just as 'we get what we allow', we all have a responsibility to voice our discomfort when someone creates an uncomfortable environment, and suggest what might better suit. A moment of silence would have been preferable to me. Ahhh...blessed SILENCE!
Religion/Government (by Cjo’h [CT]) Posted on: Dec 12, 2018 8:28 PM
as a Catholic from Northern Ireland I’d be honoured to join this Methodist
and bow my head and join her in whatever prayer she wants to say..If more people did that there would be less news on TV at 6 and 10 o’clock about some idiot shooting off a gun,who was never taught how to use it................xxxxxxx. ...Charlie......................,,,,,,, ,,,,,,, ....... --32.214.xxx.xx
Religion/Government (by cjo’h [CT]) Posted on: Dec 12, 2018 8:47 PM
Oh!and a Happy Christmas to all, no matter what persuasion,,,,,,,,,,,,.............Charlie. ....................... --32.214.xxx.xx
Religion/Government (by Busy [W]) Posted on: Dec 14, 2018 7:49 AM
Judi, that was perfect! I too am someone who will take aside and quietly voice dissent.
This tour guides heavy-handedness with proselytizing is a good example of what NOT to do when trying to change others’ minds. Lesson for us landlords, when training tenants- good habits are caught, not taught. Walk softly, carry a big stick. Unfortunately, the tour guide was smacking with that stick. --70.92.xxx.xxx
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