Cheaper heat?
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Cheaper heat? (by S i d [MO]) Jul 26, 2018 5:23 AM
       Cheaper heat? (by S i d [MO]) Jul 26, 2018 5:29 AM
       Cheaper heat? (by NE [PA]) Jul 26, 2018 5:34 AM
       Cheaper heat? (by AllyM [NJ]) Jul 26, 2018 6:09 AM
       Cheaper heat? (by Sisco [MO]) Jul 26, 2018 6:13 AM
       Cheaper heat? (by myob [GA]) Jul 26, 2018 6:14 AM
       Cheaper heat? (by S i d [MO]) Jul 26, 2018 7:15 AM
       Cheaper heat? (by Richard [MI]) Jul 26, 2018 7:18 AM
       Cheaper heat? (by Ken [NY]) Jul 26, 2018 7:45 AM
       Cheaper heat? (by Beth [WI]) Jul 26, 2018 7:54 AM
       Cheaper heat? (by Beth [WI]) Jul 26, 2018 7:54 AM
       Cheaper heat? (by Robert,OntarioCanada [ON]) Jul 26, 2018 9:03 AM
       Cheaper heat? (by Barb [MO]) Jul 26, 2018 9:06 AM
       Cheaper heat? (by Nicole [PA]) Jul 26, 2018 9:26 AM
       Cheaper heat? (by Sisco [MO]) Jul 26, 2018 9:42 AM
       Cheaper heat? (by 1Gr81 [NC]) Jul 26, 2018 10:54 AM
       Cheaper heat? (by AllyM [NJ]) Jul 26, 2018 12:20 PM
       Cheaper heat? (by NE [PA]) Jul 26, 2018 12:41 PM
       Cheaper heat? (by Lana [IN]) Jul 26, 2018 1:06 PM
       Cheaper heat? (by LindaJ [NY]) Jul 26, 2018 1:35 PM
       Cheaper heat? (by Robert,OntarioCanada [ON]) Jul 26, 2018 2:45 PM
       Cheaper heat? (by Hollis [MA]) Jul 26, 2018 3:41 PM
       Cheaper heat? (by Vee [OH]) Jul 26, 2018 4:45 PM
       Cheaper heat? (by TA [CA]) Jul 26, 2018 4:52 PM
       Cheaper heat? (by Nicole [PA]) Jul 26, 2018 5:04 PM
       Cheaper heat? (by AllyM [NJ]) Jul 26, 2018 5:29 PM
       Cheaper heat? (by don [PA]) Jul 26, 2018 7:21 PM
       Cheaper heat? (by don [PA]) Jul 26, 2018 7:26 PM
       Cheaper heat? (by Robert J [CA]) Jul 26, 2018 9:47 PM
       Cheaper heat? (by Vee [OH]) Jul 27, 2018 5:12 AM
       Cheaper heat? (by S i d [MO]) Jul 27, 2018 6:24 AM
       Cheaper heat? (by Jo [T]) Jul 27, 2018 8:40 AM
       Cheaper heat? (by Small potatoes [NY]) Jul 27, 2018 10:34 AM
       Cheaper heat? (by Nicole [PA]) Jul 27, 2018 10:51 AM
       Cheaper heat? (by RichE [IL]) Jul 27, 2018 3:08 PM
       Cheaper heat? (by hollis [MA]) Jul 27, 2018 5:31 PM
       Cheaper heat? (by NE [PA]) Jul 28, 2018 4:42 AM
       Cheaper heat? (by J [IN]) Jul 28, 2018 5:14 AM
       Cheaper heat? (by RichE [IL]) Jul 28, 2018 5:23 AM
       Cheaper heat? (by hollis [MA]) Jul 28, 2018 7:20 AM
       Cheaper heat? (by WMH [NC]) Jul 28, 2018 10:50 AM


Cheaper heat? (by S i d [MO]) Posted on: Jul 26, 2018 5:23 AM
Message:

Around here, an electric heat system (i.e. baseboard) is the cheapest to install and maintain, but the most expensive to run for the tenant. I suspect this is true in many areas. This increased cost makes our unit less desirable from a utility standpoint.

I have a house that has all baseboard electric heat now. Per City Code, baseboard heaters are considered "permanent sources of heat", and so it passes. As long as they are installed, that's all that is required. A tenant isn't required to actually use them.

I've thought about installing a "supplemental" ventless wall-mounted gas heater. Here's why:

1) A ventless heater can run for several hours without tripping the oxygen sensors, especially in some of my draftier houses that aren't up to modern air tight standards. This will mean the tenants can leave the baseboard heaters set on low (68-70 degrees), and when the ventless heaters are running the electric baseboards probably won't even kick on at all. If/when the oxygen sensor trips, then the electric heat kicks on until the air in the room gets back to acceptable levels....then the cycle repeats.

2) The ventless heaters burn clean and are rated 99.9% efficient, as you don't have a lot of hot exhaust air venting up thru the roof. It should be MUCH cheaper to run a ventless heater vs. even the most efficient central gas furnaces on the market. Plenty good for my little house.

3) Around here, I can get a central gas furnace, baseline 80% efficient model installed for around $2,500 for a small house (700-800 sq ft, 2 bed) which includes new duct work.

4) I can get a ventless 30,000 btu gas wall heater (heater, gas pipe, other misc parts and labor) for around $400 installed in a central location. That is plenty to cover most, if not all rooms in my little house. Whatever areas aren't 100% covered or where the air doesn't circulate well can be supplemented using existing baseboard electric. Cheaper for me to install one of these ventless wall systems vs. a central system: cheaper for a tenant to operate as outlined above than all electric all the time. Meets code.

I got this idea because we have a ventless gas fireplace in our personal residence. During the winter, it comfortably heats the entire upstairs of our house (1250 sq ft) to the point our central furnace won't even kick on. It takes the warm air a little more time to circulate vs. the central system, but once we get it up to 68-70 degrees we turn it down and just let it coast.... I've run it for 4-5 hours at a time on low and never tripped the oxygen sensor.

Please, shoot holes in this idea.... it almost seems too easy.

P.S. Yes, we'll have carbon monoxide alarms.

--173.19.x.xxx




Cheaper heat? (by S i d [MO]) Posted on: Jul 26, 2018 5:29 AM
Message:

Btw, this is for one of my humble Class C units. If it were a Class B, a central system would be required or highly desired. Class C is a toss up....central systems are nice, but rarely get more rent $.

My goal here is to save me $ on installing a central gas systems while also saving my tenants money on their utility bills.

Another nice thing I just recalled: during an electric outage baseboard heaters don't work....duh. But a gas wall heater will still. We've used our fireplace at home this way a couple of times during ice storms when lines went down. Kept our house nice and toasty! --173.19.x.xxx




Cheaper heat? (by NE [PA]) Posted on: Jul 26, 2018 5:34 AM
Message:

I like electric baseboard because the people have to be in somewhat good standing with power companies to get power in their names or pay huge deposits and back

Bills.

Helps with my screening in a default way.

They can set up budgets on the electric bill so they don't get those up swings in the winter. --50.32.xxx.xxx




Cheaper heat? (by AllyM [NJ]) Posted on: Jul 26, 2018 6:09 AM
Message:

Many tenants will not know how to handle a ventless heater. I would not want that on my conscience if someone killed themselves and I would not want my name in the paper either. So how about insulation? I always think that solar is not the solution to our energy problems, insulation is. Can yoou fill the attic with insulation? How about sealing around the windows? Double pane windows are good. I would like to see someone invent a retrofit outside surface that would bolt onto our homes. It could be formed into brick, stone, whatever and give us an extra layer. Or it could be inside but would have to account for electric boxes etc. I know they tried foam but it was toxic. --73.178.xxx.xx




Cheaper heat? (by Sisco [MO]) Posted on: Jul 26, 2018 6:13 AM
Message:

IMHO, this kind of measure doesn't save the tenant enough money to matter. You can't charge any more rent and it won't help with retention.

The problems revolve around tenant mentality, which is chiefly concerned with cash management - not lowering cost.

In the tenants eyes; they now have two bills to pay instead of one.....the electric bill doesn't go away.

I know that These measures would likely save the tenant $200-$300 annually, but would never be perceived as a savings. --72.172.xxx.xx




Cheaper heat? (by myob [GA]) Posted on: Jul 26, 2018 6:14 AM
Message:

I'm sittin here laughing. We use Gas in GA. can't tell you how many times, even with central heat and air, in the winter time we go over and they have space heaters going-- along with stove and oven elements. (of course it's because their gas has been terminated for non pay)

For 400.00 how much return can you get-- not just monthly but in less vacancy on re-rental? --99.103.xxx.xxx




Cheaper heat? (by S i d [MO]) Posted on: Jul 26, 2018 7:15 AM
Message:

AllyM...I've tried added insulation in other units with poor results for the money spent. Also, everything you said about a tenant killing themselves is not borne out by fact: I have yet to read a single story of someone dying from them. If you have one from a legit source, post the link so I can get better educated. The gas heaters built today are pretty well stupid proof. Unit is not level? It shuts off. Oxygen depletion? Shuts off. Oxygen sensor not working? Shuts off. Electric space heaters, on the other hand, seem to cause problems frequently when people run cords under rugs, overload circuits or allow flammable materials to get to close or fall on top of them.

Sisco...it's all City Utilities here. Electric, gas, water, sewer....everything on one bill and one deposit (if required). Doesn't matter if the unit is all electric or electric/gas mixture. For residents who prefer all electric, they can just ask not to have the gas turned on. Their choice.

No, we won't be able to charge more rent, but I think retention could be helped with lower bills. We noticed about a 20% drop in our utilities when we started using our fireplace on/off vs. all central heat all the time. Been doing that about 7 years now, so enough to get a feeling that overall we're doing better even accounting for temp swings. I am guessing the savings over all electric all the time would be more significant. I dunno...thought this might be an inexpensive experiment. Worst case I'm out $400. --173.19.x.xxx




Cheaper heat? (by Richard [MI]) Posted on: Jul 26, 2018 7:18 AM
Message:

Here in Michigan the low end tenants use portable electric heaters no matter what you might give them because the electric cannot be cut off in the winter. Once cutoff day comes, they just sign up under another name. Kids name, maiden name, or just a phony one, whatever they can get by the company. --66.188.xx.xxx




Cheaper heat? (by Ken [NY]) Posted on: Jul 26, 2018 7:45 AM
Message:

I think that is a better option in a small class C building than a furnace especially in the south.I have a couple all electric units in 2 bedroom apts and no one complains about the electric bill,of course they are the ones paying the bill anyway --72.231.xxx.xxx




Cheaper heat? (by Beth [WI]) Posted on: Jul 26, 2018 7:54 AM
Message:

IMO itís worth giving it a shot on one unit. It only takes one decent tenant who gets and appreciates the cost savings to make it worth it for you. If I remember correctly you are aiming to get class B tenants in your class C rentals? --47.12.xxx.xx




Cheaper heat? (by Beth [WI]) Posted on: Jul 26, 2018 7:54 AM
Message:

IMO itís worth giving it a shot on one unit. It only takes one decent tenant who gets and appreciates the cost savings to make it worth it for you. If I remember correctly you are aiming to get class B tenants in your class C rentals? --47.12.xxx.xx




Cheaper heat? (by Robert,OntarioCanada [ON]) Posted on: Jul 26, 2018 9:03 AM
Message:

Vent less heaters are illegal here where would never consider using as there is carbon monoxide build up. First the insulation needs to upgraded so there is minimal heat loss or heat gain. They have net zero houses here which is so well insulated there is no need for a heating or cooling system. A worthwhile option is to install a high efficiency split heat pump system which can used all year round for heating or cooling. The higher the level of insulation the smaller the split heat pump can be used. View some videos on You Tube about split heat pumps and upgrading insulation with spray foam kits. The only reason a HVAC system is required is the heat loss or heat gain. Having a air and heat is a better all year round system. --147.194.xxx.xx




Cheaper heat? (by Barb [MO]) Posted on: Jul 26, 2018 9:06 AM
Message:

So the natural gas in your town is from the city utility? I'd probably install it and explain to the resident how to use it.

I have a few of the old Williams Wall Furnaces in my places that still keep going. Every so often a prospect gets funny about the wall furnace. I point out the baseboards in the same unit and say, You can skip the gas and use these, but the cost will be WAY higher. They get the gas turned on, even if it is another bill.

Can you do a vented one out a side wall in the living room rather than a ventless one? That would add less moisture to the air and I've seen that some of the vented ones are really good. I don't know how they compare in price, though. --131.151.xx.xx




Cheaper heat? (by Nicole [PA]) Posted on: Jul 26, 2018 9:26 AM
Message:

I had these in some efficiencies. Here, technically they aren't allowed in bedrooms. I "slid" by with them.

If it's the type where they need to hold down the ignition button until the pilot kicks in and then turn the dial, some of them just can't handle that... not sure why but I had several who actually broke the heaters trying to turn them on.

I see the guy who purchased the property now has minisplits installed. --72.70.xxx.x




Cheaper heat? (by Sisco [MO]) Posted on: Jul 26, 2018 9:42 AM
Message:

With the billing as it is makes this a pretty solid option. I would look into a 50,000 btu wall furnace or floor furnace. HD has them for under $700. --72.172.xxx.xx




Cheaper heat? (by 1Gr81 [NC]) Posted on: Jul 26, 2018 10:54 AM
Message:

Fellow class C landlord here. My all electric units are by far the most popular. Theory stated above. Most tenants have left unpaid bills w the gas company, and can't get gas, and many others prefer less bills to worry about.

Also, please send me your HVAC installer. $2500 for a unit w duct work? I'll take 10. --74.124.xxx.xxx




Cheaper heat? (by AllyM [NJ]) Posted on: Jul 26, 2018 12:20 PM
Message:

I'll pass on finding you examples of people who died from carbon monoxide from unvented gas heaters. Look them up yourself. It's your neck on the chopping block. --73.178.xxx.xx




Cheaper heat? (by NE [PA]) Posted on: Jul 26, 2018 12:41 PM
Message:

I don't know why people get so bent out of shape over ventless gas heaters. 1st of all, they're LEGAL! Plus they're installed by 3rd party professionals, LEGALLY, most of the time. Running one is no different than cooking on a gas stove without an external vent fan running. If you bake in your gas oven all day, the same exhaust goes right into your house. My grandmother heated her house almost exclusively with ventless gas heaters for years with no issue at all. We used to sleep in the same room with them. --50.107.xxx.xx




Cheaper heat? (by Lana [IN]) Posted on: Jul 26, 2018 1:06 PM
Message:

I heat with wood and have 2 vented Williams wall furnaces in my great room and bedroom plus a ventless heater I leave on all the time in my bathroom. I love my ventless heater.

I have wrestled with the same dilemma. Too many of my units have baseboard electric and the smarter tenants know they cost more. --216.23.xxx.xx




Cheaper heat? (by LindaJ [NY]) Posted on: Jul 26, 2018 1:35 PM
Message:

I can't imagine having just electric heat. I think it is a great idea to install a wall heater. I like the vented ones myself, there is less moisture with them. The tenants have a choice not to turn on the gas, and they will still have heat. For the price it has to be worth it to try a few. --108.44.xx.xxx




Cheaper heat? (by Robert,OntarioCanada [ON]) Posted on: Jul 26, 2018 2:45 PM
Message:

A HVAC system is sized by the heat loss or heat gain of a building. In the past the lower cost was insulate poorly then install a larger HVAC system to cover the heat loss and heat gain. In competitive rental market the rental units with lowest cost utility bills are easier to rent all year round including the colder months of winter. There radiant floor electric heat which costs less to operate then baseboard electric heat. Fiberglass is the worst insulation out there where torn out a wall then spray foamed wall. During the winter where the outside temperature was -20 the wall with a thermal camera was measuring 0 degrees freezing. Found larger air movement in the fiberglass insulation. Roxul is better where spray foam there is next to zero air movement. Now going to break the drywall in the next wall then insulate as this bedroom is extremely cold along with breaking out the drywall in the garage below then spray foaming. The house is using 50,000 Btu furnace which is adequate where planning in the future to use the high efficiency furnace less. A thermal camera will reveal the areas where insulation is inadequate. Before installing new drywall going to install a layer of bubble wrap as the studs are 3.25 thick. No matter what level the rental market energy efficient rental units are always easier to rent where over time the cost of upgrades can be paid for by slightly higher rents along with less vacancies which cost. Find many videos on You tube helpful about heating systems and insulating walls, ceilings. --147.194.xxx.xx




Cheaper heat? (by Hollis [MA]) Posted on: Jul 26, 2018 3:41 PM
Message:

When you burn fuel,..you get water as one by product, (strike a paper match and hold it sideways,..notice the little bubble of water just behind the flame) The "smoke from chimneys (non wood) from oil or natural gas on a very cold day is mostly water vapor.(as well as the exhaust from a car)

If you have a NON VENTED heater you get a LOT of moisture in a unit. windows usually gets wet and weep,..water gets in walls and cause problems and make most insulation less effective.

Not counting some pretty complex hydrocarbons that they keep changing the composition * that we know little about in long term health,..I would NEVER have one in my personal space.

Besides propane/methane they put in a soup of anti rust inhibitors, flow agents, extenders etc.And they change them at a whim. You don't know what you are getting in your air when all these are burned and drifting around in your house.

Tenants will use whatever they think is cheapest to run. So a ventless will be running most of the time in cold weather. --96.236.xxx.xxx




Cheaper heat? (by Vee [OH]) Posted on: Jul 26, 2018 4:45 PM
Message:

A classic reason kerosene heaters are hardly available is the non vented fumes and moisture that results in mold - nobody opens anything up to defray humidity in the wintertime, so I would suggest a 18-20k gas heater or maybe 2 15-18k units, if the sensor shuts off one the might keep running till daylight. The regular wall heaters vent outside and they even have some 90percent units out that breath and vent thru the wall. --76.188.xxx.xx




Cheaper heat? (by TA [CA]) Posted on: Jul 26, 2018 4:52 PM
Message:

Is there an in between option between a furnace and a small vent free heater? Around here there are direct vent heaters w/o ducts for a lot less than a whole house furnace with ducts. Then there are no concerns around safety --75.149.xx.x




Cheaper heat? (by Nicole [PA]) Posted on: Jul 26, 2018 5:04 PM
Message:

Comment on the electric baseboard heat. I've got that in several places. Yes, it's very expensive to run since tenant's can't manage to "manage" it. However, like someone above stated, they either transfer it into someone else's name when scheduled for shut off or they apply for what here is called LIHEAP which is a heating grant. --72.70.xxx.x




Cheaper heat? (by AllyM [NJ]) Posted on: Jul 26, 2018 5:29 PM
Message:

NE, my range hood broke last year. For one reason or another I have not found someone to get the new one out of the garage and install it. But now I have found someone. I crack the kitchen door a bit because if I let even one pot full of something boil for awhile I get dizzy and feel not well from the CO. I have a CO detector with a read out on the front that will go off at 60 PPM. A couple of times when I started feeling not well while cooking, I looked at the readout and it was just about 60 PPm. I have not baked anything since the range hood broke because it's too much heat and CO for me. I remember my mother's last Thanksgiving. I was just putting the meal in front of her when the phone rang. It was two young moron tenants that I had rented to. They were a case of parents dropping them on me and hovering then leaving me with two messes. They had the CO alarm going off. They were making a turkey and could not turn the fan on over the stove so I told them to open some windows and went over. They had somehow shut off a switch that also controlled the range hood fan that was right in front of them and which they were told about. My point is that it doesn't take a lot of gas oven use to put enough CO in the air to cause a problem. I don't know how you survived your grandma's house. Maybe it was drafty and maybe you were almost dead in the morning but you got up and when you got outside you were OK. If you always had healthy looking red cheeks in the morning, it was the CO, better known as the Red Death. --73.178.xxx.xx




Cheaper heat? (by don [PA]) Posted on: Jul 26, 2018 7:21 PM
Message:

Sid, You wrote ventless gas heater. Do you mean direct vent or ventless. The only ventless heaters that I have heard about have been fake fireplace units. I don't see how a ventless unit could be primary heat. When the unit senses too much CO or not enough O2 it shuts down. WHat are the tenants supposed to do for heat then? If it is cold out and the heater runs steadily it is gonna put out enough CO and burn enough O2 to trigger the safety shutdowns. --73.141.xxx.xxx




Cheaper heat? (by don [PA]) Posted on: Jul 26, 2018 7:26 PM
Message:

NE--the difference is that you don't cook on your stove continuously all day, but on a cold day the heater will run long periods. If you do have a cooking marathon and your CO detector goes off, you just turn off the stove and stop cooking. If it is frigid out and the ventless heater has to shut down because of too much CO built up, then what? Tenant can't go without heat. --73.141.xxx.xxx




Cheaper heat? (by Robert J [CA]) Posted on: Jul 26, 2018 9:47 PM
Message:

You are correct that electric baseboard heaters are not very powerful and lack enough output to make things comfortable. As a contractor I had a large 3 bedroom apartment without proper heating. The building installed wall air conditioners with reverse flow to give heat. Very expensive heat. So I did the following to solve the heating problem.

1) There was natural gas at the property, each unit had their own gas stove and gas water heater.

2) Between the master bedroom and second bedroom I installed a wall heater with a double vent to heat both rooms. These is an adjustable vent between the two rooms.

3) Then I installed a second double wall heater between the living room and hallway, next to the third bedroom and put a blower on the hallway heater to direct heat into the open door of the 3rd bedroom.

This way I din't have to run a central system or ducts. Each heater was under $1,000 and I did the install myself. --47.156.xx.xx




Cheaper heat? (by Vee [OH]) Posted on: Jul 27, 2018 5:12 AM
Message:

Ally - be careful very careful, 20ppm is when you get dizzy - 25 is pretty much it, you need to adjust your air-gas on the stove burners if cooking gets you up past 40. --76.188.xxx.xx




Cheaper heat? (by S i d [MO]) Posted on: Jul 27, 2018 6:24 AM
Message:

Thanks, everyone, for your comments. There's plenty of existing baseboard heat already in place. Again, the plan is to use the gas as a supplement. It will take a little training to ensure the tenant realizes the advantages and how to use it properly, but that is common to all types of systems. If they don't want to risk death by poison fumes....they can simply use the electric heat and have a higher bill. However, if they have above room temperature IQ (always desirable!), they can save some $ and not die.

For an example of this type of product, go to Lowes website and look for "Dyna-Glo 30000-BTU Wall or Floor-Mount Natural Gas Vent-Free Infrared Heater" or type in Item # 709988 Model # IR30NMDG-1. 24 reviews, 96% recommended, and no one had died yet from using it (that we know of). --173.19.x.xxx




Cheaper heat? (by Jo [T]) Posted on: Jul 27, 2018 8:40 AM
Message:

Sid, I have a gas on gas heating/cooking stove in one of my units in the kitchen, as well as electric baseboard in each bedroom. I also have installed a ventless gas wall hung unit in the living room. These students have options. The heating stove in the kitchen is the main source of heat as it is a vented unit, but on extremely cold days they can turn on the gas heater in the living room. That think will blast you with heat! It is legal because it's not the main heat source.

In my personal home, I have a ventless gas unit that looks like a little wood stove, fake logs and all in my living room. I run that alot in the winter to keep my downstairs cozy. Never had an issue with either heaters.

I do clean them, blow out the orifice, vacuum any dust before the heating season. I think they are great.

I do, however, have good CO detectors nearby. --32.215.xxx.xxx




Cheaper heat? (by Small potatoes [NY]) Posted on: Jul 27, 2018 10:34 AM
Message:

I agree that C tenants avoid electric baseboard. In my municipality a wall furnace can't be primary heat. I put 30k btu rinnai vented unit in garden apt n it really puts out. Tenant never uses bb heat and keeps wall heater at 60 --66.87.xxx.xxx




Cheaper heat? (by Nicole [PA]) Posted on: Jul 27, 2018 10:51 AM
Message:

those are what I had. still have one in the basement of a multiunit that is all electric that I turn on when a real cold snap comes through.

you push the push button, a couple clicks and you turn the dial. again, some folks can't handle that for whatever reason.

I've never had a moisture issue. --72.70.xxx.x




Cheaper heat? (by RichE [IL]) Posted on: Jul 27, 2018 3:08 PM
Message:

I have some of those in some one bedroom class C apartments. I also provide a dehumidifier and insist they use it to keep the humidity down in the winter. If they don't use the dehumidifier, the water vapor condenses on the cold outside walls and windows; mildew and all it's attendant problems, follows. I have not had any problem with them other than having to help light them if they turn them off and the piezo ignitors aren't working. I am thinking of putting in PTACS in that building and letting the tenant decide which to use. --67.186.xxx.xxx




Cheaper heat? (by hollis [MA]) Posted on: Jul 27, 2018 5:31 PM
Message:

RichE,..have you ever calculated what it cost to run a dehumidifier? I don't see a savings.

Sid, the tenant will always pick the cheap way,..they will use the ventless heater. I have a nephew that uses a Kerosun as the workhord heater i his house (illegal in this state) When I go over I smell strong fumes,..He and his wife are nose dead to it. After about 20 minutes I get a headache.

I don't believe in burned hydrocarbons locked in the air of a house. Esp propane and natural gas, (natural gas used to be methane but as said before a soup of other chemicals now,..

Your ventless tenant will get used to the bad air, and you will have a lot of potentially moisture problems.

As far as electric as being expensive,.well we accent how energy efficient our units are,..Max wall insulation, good windows,and maybe most important air sealing (blower door tested,

Also with multiple units,..often you are not heating a exterior walls as belong to other units,..ceiling might be under a heated unit,..(our top floors usually have R50-60 insulation, We have heavy drapes with valances that can button up.

BTW did you know in winter when calling for heat,..with electric heat you can leave as many lights on as you wish ,..as the heat they produce totally offset the heat your baseboards have to be on..

--66.30.xx.xxx




Cheaper heat? (by NE [PA]) Posted on: Jul 28, 2018 4:42 AM
Message:

So SId, what have you decided to do after this post? --50.107.xxx.xx




Cheaper heat? (by J [IN]) Posted on: Jul 28, 2018 5:14 AM
Message:

I like your idea but I would see if there is something similar available in vented. Maybe like one of those Williams wall units. Have you ever seen what the black sooty stuff that comes off those ventless does to a place in a few years if there not properly maintained. I know of a garage in a foreclosure with a ventless that the walls and garage door were nasty black in color. There is also the amount of moisture non venting gets you. Seems counter productive to save with gas, to run an electric dehumidifier. My in laws had a ventless fireplace and they got rid of it. --71.32.xxx.xx




Cheaper heat? (by RichE [IL]) Posted on: Jul 28, 2018 5:23 AM
Message:

I don't pay electric, but I suspect a small dehumidifier and gas is cheaper than electric heat. --67.186.xxx.xxx




Cheaper heat? (by hollis [MA]) Posted on: Jul 28, 2018 7:20 AM
Message:

RichE

Well a dehumidifier is essentially an AC that is not vented outside and collects moisture on its coils,..I would imagine that it would have to be run continuously to negate the moisture of ventless heat and not sure a small one would even be adequate,

In our part of the country we use oil a lot.,.it is also expensive. In one unit we were waiting for a new furnace install,(Jan)..empty unit,..as an experiment I had the oil tank filled and for that month of waiting for the new boiler I ran electric heaters (as you may know ALL electric heater whether portables or baseboards run on the same amount of electricity and produce that same amount of BTU's,..

End of the month I got the electric bill next month the more efficient boiler was running and Feb heating degree days were almost even. Filled the oil tank again after that month,..

The costs were really not that much different. Yes natural gas is cheaper at least for now,..but as said earlier electric HAS its advantages to the tenant and esp to the landlord,..

When people ask what is the heat source we point out that it is electric but the place is well insulated and leaked checked and btw we discount the rent for THAT unit (pick a number 30-40 dollars a month) because of the fact its electrically heated unit . That yearly savings buys a fair amount of the winters heat in this very insulated unit,

Actually we get about the same rent that we want for the unit,,... tenants love to think they are getting a bargain,..

If the still balk because they lived in a poorly insulated unit or that Daddy or friends said "never to move into a place with electric heat". We know they probably on the edge of affording it unit.

BTW You might look at my posts on the "thermal camera" thread here to see additional things that can be done for heat savings.

Most of our tenants in electrically heated units don't complain about heating costs, AND they often say they ,for the first time in an apartment they feel NO drafts no matter how cold and windy it is.

Also when they move in, we send them information on what blower door tests do and how we did air sealing (read about Infiltration heat loss in houses) and other things we have done for heat efficiently,..which also helps this time of year,.We find they often tell their friends and our buildings have good reputations on being energy efficient

--66.30.xx.xxx




Cheaper heat? (by WMH [NC]) Posted on: Jul 28, 2018 10:50 AM
Message:

We install through-wall heat pumps with baseboard back-up. --50.82.xxx.xx





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