--173.19.x.xxx

Another nice thing I just recalled: during an electric outage baseboard heaters don't work....duh. But a gas wall heater will still. We've used our fireplace at home this way a couple of times during ice storms when lines went down. Kept our house nice and toasty! --173.19.x.xxx

They can set up budgets on the electric bill so they don't get those up swings in the winter. --50.32.xxx.xxx

Many tenants will not know how to handle a ventless heater. I would not want that on my conscience if someone killed themselves and I would not want my name in the paper either. So how about insulation? I always think that solar is not the solution to our energy problems, insulation is. Can yoou fill the attic with insulation? How about sealing around the windows? Double pane windows are good. I would like to see someone invent a retrofit outside surface that would bolt onto our homes. It could be formed into brick, stone, whatever and give us an extra layer. Or it could be inside but would have to account for electric boxes etc. I know they tried foam but it was toxic. --73.178.xxx.xx

I know that These measures would likely save the tenant $200-$300 annually, but would never be perceived as a savings. --72.172.xxx.xx

For 400.00 how much return can you get-- not just monthly but in less vacancy on re-rental? --99.103.xxx.xxx

No, we won't be able to charge more rent, but I think retention could be helped with lower bills. We noticed about a 20% drop in our utilities when we started using our fireplace on/off vs. all central heat all the time. Been doing that about 7 years now, so enough to get a feeling that overall we're doing better even accounting for temp swings. I am guessing the savings over all electric all the time would be more significant. I dunno...thought this might be an inexpensive experiment. Worst case I'm out $400. --173.19.x.xxx

Here in Michigan the low end tenants use portable electric heaters no matter what you might give them because the electric cannot be cut off in the winter. Once cutoff day comes, they just sign up under another name. Kids name, maiden name, or just a phony one, whatever they can get by the company. --66.188.xx.xxx

I think that is a better option in a small class C building than a furnace especially in the south.I have a couple all electric units in 2 bedroom apts and no one complains about the electric bill,of course they are the ones paying the bill anyway --72.231.xxx.xxx

IMO it’s worth giving it a shot on one unit. It only takes one decent tenant who gets and appreciates the cost savings to make it worth it for you. If I remember correctly you are aiming to get class B tenants in your class C rentals? --47.12.xxx.xx

IMO it’s worth giving it a shot on one unit. It only takes one decent tenant who gets and appreciates the cost savings to make it worth it for you. If I remember correctly you are aiming to get class B tenants in your class C rentals? --47.12.xxx.xx

Vent less heaters are illegal here where would never consider using as there is carbon monoxide build up. First the insulation needs to upgraded so there is minimal heat loss or heat gain. They have net zero houses here which is so well insulated there is no need for a heating or cooling system. A worthwhile option is to install a high efficiency split heat pump system which can used all year round for heating or cooling. The higher the level of insulation the smaller the split heat pump can be used. View some videos on You Tube about split heat pumps and upgrading insulation with spray foam kits. The only reason a HVAC system is required is the heat loss or heat gain. Having a air and heat is a better all year round system. --147.194.xxx.xx

Can you do a vented one out a side wall in the living room rather than a ventless one? That would add less moisture to the air and I've seen that some of the vented ones are really good. I don't know how they compare in price, though. --131.151.xx.xx

I see the guy who purchased the property now has minisplits installed. --72.70.xxx.x

With the billing as it is makes this a pretty solid option. I would look into a 50,000 btu wall furnace or floor furnace. HD has them for under $700. --72.172.xxx.xx

Also, please send me your HVAC installer. $2500 for a unit w duct work? I'll take 10. --74.124.xxx.xxx

I'll pass on finding you examples of people who died from carbon monoxide from unvented gas heaters. Look them up yourself. It's your neck on the chopping block. --73.178.xxx.xx

I don't know why people get so bent out of shape over ventless gas heaters. 1st of all, they're LEGAL! Plus they're installed by 3rd party professionals, LEGALLY, most of the time. Running one is no different than cooking on a gas stove without an external vent fan running. If you bake in your gas oven all day, the same exhaust goes right into your house. My grandmother heated her house almost exclusively with ventless gas heaters for years with no issue at all. We used to sleep in the same room with them. --50.107.xxx.xx

I have wrestled with the same dilemma. Too many of my units have baseboard electric and the smarter tenants know they cost more. --216.23.xxx.xx

I can't imagine having just electric heat. I think it is a great idea to install a wall heater. I like the vented ones myself, there is less moisture with them. The tenants have a choice not to turn on the gas, and they will still have heat. For the price it has to be worth it to try a few. --108.44.xx.xxx

A HVAC system is sized by the heat loss or heat gain of a building. In the past the lower cost was insulate poorly then install a larger HVAC system to cover the heat loss and heat gain. In competitive rental market the rental units with lowest cost utility bills are easier to rent all year round including the colder months of winter. There radiant floor electric heat which costs less to operate then baseboard electric heat. Fiberglass is the worst insulation out there where torn out a wall then spray foamed wall. During the winter where the outside temperature was -20 the wall with a thermal camera was measuring 0 degrees freezing. Found larger air movement in the fiberglass insulation. Roxul is better where spray foam there is next to zero air movement. Now going to break the drywall in the next wall then insulate as this bedroom is extremely cold along with breaking out the drywall in the garage below then spray foaming. The house is using 50,000 Btu furnace which is adequate where planning in the future to use the high efficiency furnace less. A thermal camera will reveal the areas where insulation is inadequate. Before installing new drywall going to install a layer of bubble wrap as the studs are 3.25 thick. No matter what level the rental market energy efficient rental units are always easier to rent where over time the cost of upgrades can be paid for by slightly higher rents along with less vacancies which cost. Find many videos on You tube helpful about heating systems and insulating walls, ceilings. --147.194.xxx.xx

Tenants will use whatever they think is cheapest to run. So a ventless will be running most of the time in cold weather. --96.236.xxx.xxx

A classic reason kerosene heaters are hardly available is the non vented fumes and moisture that results in mold - nobody opens anything up to defray humidity in the wintertime, so I would suggest a 18-20k gas heater or maybe 2 15-18k units, if the sensor shuts off one the might keep running till daylight. The regular wall heaters vent outside and they even have some 90percent units out that breath and vent thru the wall. --76.188.xxx.xx

Is there an in between option between a furnace and a small vent free heater? Around here there are direct vent heaters w/o ducts for a lot less than a whole house furnace with ducts. Then there are no concerns around safety --75.149.xx.x

Comment on the electric baseboard heat. I've got that in several places. Yes, it's very expensive to run since tenant's can't manage to "manage" it. However, like someone above stated, they either transfer it into someone else's name when scheduled for shut off or they apply for what here is called LIHEAP which is a heating grant. --72.70.xxx.x

NE, my range hood broke last year. For one reason or another I have not found someone to get the new one out of the garage and install it. But now I have found someone. I crack the kitchen door a bit because if I let even one pot full of something boil for awhile I get dizzy and feel not well from the CO. I have a CO detector with a read out on the front that will go off at 60 PPM. A couple of times when I started feeling not well while cooking, I looked at the readout and it was just about 60 PPm. I have not baked anything since the range hood broke because it's too much heat and CO for me. I remember my mother's last Thanksgiving. I was just putting the meal in front of her when the phone rang. It was two young moron tenants that I had rented to. They were a case of parents dropping them on me and hovering then leaving me with two messes. They had the CO alarm going off. They were making a turkey and could not turn the fan on over the stove so I told them to open some windows and went over. They had somehow shut off a switch that also controlled the range hood fan that was right in front of them and which they were told about. My point is that it doesn't take a lot of gas oven use to put enough CO in the air to cause a problem. I don't know how you survived your grandma's house. Maybe it was drafty and maybe you were almost dead in the morning but you got up and when you got outside you were OK. If you always had healthy looking red cheeks in the morning, it was the CO, better known as the Red Death. --73.178.xxx.xx

Sid, You wrote ventless gas heater. Do you mean direct vent or ventless. The only ventless heaters that I have heard about have been fake fireplace units. I don't see how a ventless unit could be primary heat. When the unit senses too much CO or not enough O2 it shuts down. WHat are the tenants supposed to do for heat then? If it is cold out and the heater runs steadily it is gonna put out enough CO and burn enough O2 to trigger the safety shutdowns. --73.141.xxx.xxx

NE--the difference is that you don't cook on your stove continuously all day, but on a cold day the heater will run long periods. If you do have a cooking marathon and your CO detector goes off, you just turn off the stove and stop cooking. If it is frigid out and the ventless heater has to shut down because of too much CO built up, then what? Tenant can't go without heat. --73.141.xxx.xxx

This way I din't have to run a central system or ducts. Each heater was under $1,000 and I did the install myself. --47.156.xx.xx

Ally - be careful very careful, 20ppm is when you get dizzy - 25 is pretty much it, you need to adjust your air-gas on the stove burners if cooking gets you up past 40. --76.188.xxx.xx

For an example of this type of product, go to Lowes website and look for "Dyna-Glo 30000-BTU Wall or Floor-Mount Natural Gas Vent-Free Infrared Heater" or type in Item # 709988 Model # IR30NMDG-1. 24 reviews, 96% recommended, and no one had died yet from using it (that we know of). --173.19.x.xxx

I do, however, have good CO detectors nearby. --32.215.xxx.xxx

I agree that C tenants avoid electric baseboard. In my municipality a wall furnace can't be primary heat. I put 30k btu rinnai vented unit in garden apt n it really puts out. Tenant never uses bb heat and keeps wall heater at 60 --66.87.xxx.xxx

I've never had a moisture issue. --72.70.xxx.x

I have some of those in some one bedroom class C apartments. I also provide a dehumidifier and insist they use it to keep the humidity down in the winter. If they don't use the dehumidifier, the water vapor condenses on the cold outside walls and windows; mildew and all it's attendant problems, follows. I have not had any problem with them other than having to help light them if they turn them off and the piezo ignitors aren't working. I am thinking of putting in PTACS in that building and letting the tenant decide which to use. --67.186.xxx.xxx

--66.30.xx.xxx

So SId, what have you decided to do after this post? --50.107.xxx.xx

I like your idea but I would see if there is something similar available in vented. Maybe like one of those Williams wall units. Have you ever seen what the black sooty stuff that comes off those ventless does to a place in a few years if there not properly maintained. I know of a garage in a foreclosure with a ventless that the walls and garage door were nasty black in color. There is also the amount of moisture non venting gets you. Seems counter productive to save with gas, to run an electric dehumidifier. My in laws had a ventless fireplace and they got rid of it. --71.32.xxx.xx

I don't pay electric, but I suspect a small dehumidifier and gas is cheaper than electric heat. --67.186.xxx.xxx

--66.30.xx.xxx

We install through-wall heat pumps with baseboard back-up. --50.82.xxx.xx