Need some feedback (be nice, please). This will be long so I can try to include needed details. If you think it is too long, please just scroll by and be kind. Just to clarify, I have been a LL for 38 years so I am not a newbie and have dealt with bad tenants before, but not for awhile.

I had new tenants (unmarried couple with one daughter) move into a 3 bedroom rental unit in a country subdivison. The property is a 3 unit on an acre and about 15-20 minutes from my home. Unfortunately these tenants must have had fake references (relatives,friends???) as they checked out, before I rented to them.

The mother of the 9 yr old child (who looks much older), refuses to believe that her daughter did some things that another tenant claimed. The other tenant is my 74 year old special needs sister who lives in one of the units and she would not have made this up or lied.

My sister called me, sobbing last Monday and told me that I needed to do something with the "girl" in the upstairs apt and that she was driving her crazy. I then found out that this girl had gone into my sister's apartment while she was there, and made several phone calls with my sister continuing to tell her to stop it. She did not listen. She also used the bathroom, put some kind of gooey fingernail stuff in her microwave, and ate some whipped topping out of her refrig. My sister was afraid that this girl would hurt her (she is a hefty girl), so she did not tell me until last Monday. This girl also took my sister's flashlight and when my sister kept looking for it later, the girl told her that maybe it was in her bag. She apparently went upstairs and brought it back down and gave it back.

I texted the mother, told her we had a problem and told her to call me. When she called, I told her about the daughter and my sister. She refused to believe that her daughter did anything wrong, and when she made no effort to deal with it, I told her they would have to move. She said that they would be out Friday which is today. Of course she played the racial profiling card that they were being accused because she was black and her husband is Hispanic. We were fine until this happened.

Last night her husband, who never said a word about the issue, never contacted me about their response, etc, emailed me, telling me that by law, I needed to give them a 5 day notice to "cure" the problem, which is true. He wanted the chance to stay and correct what was wrong. He was calm and respectful, etc. I told him that I was going to post the 5 day so the process is started, should things not change and that I had not posted it before, because his wife had announced that they would be out Friday (now today).

He had told me that I could just discuss things with him and not have to deal with his wife's temper and he would be sure that his daughter never approached or bothered my sister again or any new tenant that I may have in the third vacant apt. He also offered to buy my sister $50 in groceries and pay her entire phone bill this month, when the next one comes if they can have a second chance. I did not accept either offer but told him they would have to pay for the food their daughter ate and the phone calls she made. I am bound by law to give them a second chance with the 5 day.

The mother is angry at me (which I can take) but also angry at my sister and I worry about her. She has been bullied by this girl and her mom is something else. She has stayed locked in her apartment until today as I thought they would be gone and she could feel safe again to get out and walk, visit with neighbors, etc.

A neighbor who is a friend of my sisters, said this girl took her dog back to my rental unit without permission (3 houses away).They got the dog back but are now watching out for Nancy after she told them what happened. The neighbor called me tonight to tell me that the couple were arguing and then the woman followed the man down to the highway and they were arguing and being physical with each other along the well traveled highway.

I can't really tell the tenants that I know anything about this, as they would think my sister told me and she didn't. Don't want them to target her. I had planned to post the 5 day notice on their door tomorrow about the bullying by the girl and then later if I can get a way to find out about them disturbing neighbors with their argument, without implicating my sister, I can do another notice on that or a 14 day. They are on a 6 month lease through Dec 31 but I am at the point where I want them gone, but also need to protect my sister.

I did talk to the sheriff when the girl first started with her bullying but they said they wouldn't do anything unless it esculated. They do have the names of the tenants as I told them about threats she was making last Monday, trying to get me to come there so she could confront me. I would not go.

I could use some feedback/advice/suggestions on how to proceed and how to even post the notice when they are now angry at each other and my sister and probably me. I am supposed to give it to someone over 14 or hand directly to them or post on the door and then mail a copy. I also do the door notice, to not have confrontation.

Sorry for the long post. I try to make the situation clear at the first post so there isn't a lot of missing info.

From what I resd this is too tangled and too personal for DIY/ self help.

Time to let a lawyer handle this and you take care of your sister. Good luck

First thing, post the notice. Do a "nail & mail" with a time stamped picture of the notice posted on the door. Get a mailing receipt (not certified mail) from the post office that you mailed the the notice.

You might consider putting a hidden camera in the apartment to record if the daughter again enters the special needs sisters unit.

Forget about the husband & wife arguing, unless it disturbs the quiet enjoyment of the other renters. But then you'd have to have them call the police.

Its certainly possible somewhere along the line the out of control wife will threaten any of the other renters. Then they'd have grounds for a TRO.

A possible quick fix the a cash-for-keys offer coupled with a happy clause letter, for them to immediately leave.

Oh my, Cat. Wow! First of all, I'm sorry you & your sister have to deal with this.

Also, It makes me pause, as I have been considering putting my special-needs daughter into a small multi (2 or 3-plex). Now I'm not so sure about that. She, too, is the type that is an easy mark for bullies, and wouldn't know how to handle it.

It sounds like they have had similar trouble before (from what husband said & because you just don't get that bad overnight). I suggest post the notice quietly (Tape, not nail it to the door) very early in the morning (or late at night), when they are unlikely to be up & see you. OR have it professionally served during the day.

Try to get the dog-owning neighbor to at least put the events in writing, if not file a police report. At the very least, you put in writing what they said.

I also highly recommend security cameras in public spaces as well as your sister's apartment.

I'm sure your lease must have a clause regarding quiet enjoyment for neighbors and obeying all laws, which is where I think you have the grounds to evict. Perhaps also if they are forbidden to have any animal on the property at all.

You might try cash for keys or happy clause, but I suspect - from what the father said - that they don't want to leave. Probably had a terrible time finding a place to go, and know they were lucky to have fooled you. I don't think people like that will leave easily.

Of course, make sure you are documenting and saving EVERYTHING, including after-the-fact narrative/record of EVERY interaction with them & sister, and neighbors. Keep a chronological log. I suggest get in the habit of sending them a copy of your written understanding of the situation and events(I'm afraid there WILL be more). Include with it a note that says " if you believe there is any discrepancy in these facts, respond in writing within (x) days or by (a certain date)".

You may really need to get a lawyer involved, but I think you'll also need to stand up to them, by not being afraid to go over as normal, stand up tall & look them in the eye when you speak, let them know you and your sister will not give up your rights to be in charge (you) and enjoy (sister) her right to enjoy her space & freedom to come and go as she pleases. I do understand how she would feel fearful, and I think intimidation is absolutely unacceptable. However, others - like a judge - may not understand it and expect your sister to have a thicker skin, so you really need to gather stacks of evidence. You and your sister must ALWAYS be polite and professional (get cameras that record sound and try to have any interaction in front of a camera)so that no unjust accusation will stick to you.

I realize this is a very long response, but hopefully some ideas are helpful.

I wish you the best. Please keep us posted.

Thanks for all the advice so far.

My sister does keep her door locked now all the time. Sometimes she likes to have the inside door open to get fresh air with the screen door closed. I told her to lock the screen door if she does that. She is not used to staying in the apartment so much. They have not bothered her since I contacted them on Monday. They do not know that I know about the argument between them, etc. I am not going to mention that to them, but am going to try to incorporate something into the 5 day to cover it, should it become a bigger issue. Just not sure of the wording. Maybe something like disturbing other tenants or neighbors, along with other things they have done.

I don't show signs of being intimidated around them but just prefer to avoid confrontation. Last Monday when the crap hit the fan, I talked to the sheriff after she kept telling me she was waiting for me, making endless phone calls to me (that I let go to voice mail), etc. The cops said they weren't going out there,unless something happens and suggested that I don't either. I followed that advice.

I have not caved to their demands. She wanted me to come right over and give them the deposit and all the rent back but showed no signs of moving out. I refused to do that, until they were out and returned all the keys. I am concerned there may be damage but hope not. We will see.

I have thought about having my sister come to my place or see if my other sister will take her in for a few days. She does not like change so there may be issues there as her days are usually a series of specific times and appointments. I will be watching to see if anything starts to esculate and if it does, she is out of there.

My sister does get meals on wheels every week day so someone does have contact with her daily. She also has a lady working for an agency go pick up her groceries for her. She used to be able to go along and do her own shopping but the agency changed their rules and will no longer take anyone with them, due to liability if they had a accident, etc. She also has someone stop in to do a quick clean once per week and my sister stops in at least once per week on Sunday to take her to church.

The neighbor only a few feet from our driveway, keeps an eye out for my sister and I am sure she will let me know if she sees anything off over there. The lady with the dog also checks up on her via phone.

I know absolutely nothing about security systems and don't have good enough internet access out here, or a decent phone so not sure how that would even work. I rarely have tenant issues anymore but this one is a surprise.

I would try to step back and look at the basic issues.

One tenant is stealing and bullying another tenant. (I hate bullies)

Same tenant is stealing and bullying an elderly defenseless member of your family.

End their tenancy.

Attitude = evict

Threatening =evict

Any mention of discrimination = evict

Entitlement attitude = evict

Just to clarify. I AM working to get them out. I AM posting notice to cure today, as I had intended. Just figuring out the wording so it may also cover if they continue with other issues.

The husband emailed me again last night. He knows the 5 day is coming and even asked for it, so they could stop doing anything that would get them kicked out. Since she said they would be moved out by yesterday and they never moved out, that is my next step. He told me he would be home until 5 pm today, so I could give it to him or put it in the mailbox. I cannot put it in the mailbox by law, but must give in person or post on the door and then send a copy to their address. Unfortunately it is his wife that is being a problem, from what I can see. Not sure even he can control her, after the blowout when she ran after him. Of course the daughter is being a problem as well, although I don't think any of them have bothered my sister, since I let them know they are gone if they have ANY contact with her again.

The husband told me that they got their address transferred to my property and asked "Does this still mean we need to vacate the premises". My answer was that I don't know the answer to that, as I have no idea if the problems and issues there will stop or not. I cannot predict the future. I wanted to say GET OUT but of course didn't.

I have insisted that all communication be, by email so I have it all in writing and not have to do a he said, she said scenario. I also have a couple texts. There was one or two phone calls at the beginning but now everything is in writing so I have more proof.

They do not know that I know about the fight they had (started inside and then went outside and then down to the highway). I am sure it disturbed the neighbors. From what I understand, they were loud and the neighbor who had the dog stolen (3 houses away) was driving to the city nearby and saw this. I am keeping identities of those helping me watch out for my sister. I am putting the info in the 5 day, including the issues with the bullying of my tenant, making phone calls on her phone without permission and and attempted intimidation of landlord, and then adding disturbing other tenants and neighbors to cover that aspect too, if their blowout happens again or if they harass other tenants and/or neighbors. I am trying to word it to include as much as I can, so I don't need to do another 5 day for something different.

I think they know that I am not playing which is why they are panicking as he says they have no place to go (NOT my problem). I am doing what is best for my sister, while also doing what I need to do to get them out. I have no choice as I have to post the notice to cure by law and give them a chance, even though I prefer they just got out.

Removing my sister is not an option. She has to have repetition and the same schedule in her life and removing her would upset her immensely and send her into a tailspin.

My intention was to work on the vacant apartment today, to try to get it ready to rent by the first and also be nearby, should the wife go after my sister when she sees the notice.I don't think she will but just trying to second guess what the reaction may be. If in the lower apartment working, I would also possibly hear their conversation or arguments to see if they will disclose if there are any more threats or if they are going to stop being a nuisance, if they are moving, etc. That way I can move the target from my sister to me, if I can attest to hearing these things or seeing these things myself. I have also thought about working on the apartment first and then leaving the notice when I am done with the apartment for the day. Not sure if knowing I am there, may escalate the situation.

What do you all think? Work on apartment first or post notice first?

Thanks DJ for your feedback.

I just finished what I was going to put as needed to cure. It is on a draft copy. Wanted to get the wording right before filling it out to be sure I covered as much as I could in this 5 day.

Here is what I have, for what they need to cure to stay.

Failure to control their daughter as she was bullying another tenant and took a neighbor's dog to my rental, without the owner's knowledge or consent. Also attempted intimidation of landlord, by constant phone calls and threatening emails.

How does that sound? There is not a lot of room on these forms.

I posted the 5 day on the door about 2 pm central time today, without them realizing I was there. Then I realized on my copies, that I had put the same date for mailing it out to them and remembered it was Saturday and post office was not open, to get the certificate of mailing. I decided to just mail the copy in the mailbox outside the post office, so the dates would match. I mailed it about 2:30 and it says pickup is about 3:30 there on Saturdays. I may go the post office on Monday and mail yet another copy getting the certificate of mailing, unless one of them acknowledges that they got it through text or email before Monday. I made sure I allowed the correct number of days to termination date (and even added a day), if problems not corrected by then.

I would like them to leave but have no choice but to give them a chance to cure, by Wisconsin law. Since he had been decent to me, and said they had put everything they had into the apartment, I made the ending day of the potential termination on July 31, a day extra. We can't count the day of posting or Saturday or Sunday or holidays so I started counting the 5 days on Tuesday and added a day, making it July 31 to coincide when it may be possible for them to find another place easier.

I also told him that if they left on their own on the 31st, I would waive the required 30 day notice and if no damages or other amounts owed. I would get their deposit back to them in record time. The 31st is also the day after they get their paychecks, I believe. Made it real simple for them to just leave. I really do not think that problems with them are over.

I know that some landlords do cash for keys, but that has never set well with me. I would just personally have an issue, rewarding bad behavior with money.

These tenants came from out of state (Chicago area) but have relatives in the area. I have always heard that Illinois is tenant friendly and she seemed to think I would cave and give them all their rent and deposit back, after renting it for 2 plus weeks, because that was the "law", LOL. I love it when tenants try to tell me the law. NOPE,not true, as always, when tenants try to tell me their version of the law.

I will keep everyone updated. Wish me luck.

Cat, my advice is to get an attorney. You are in way over your head. Emotionally wrapped up in the situation, second guessing and perseveration the most basic of landlord duties with the notice, etc. You need clear thinking, dispasssionate help.

Who can be kind in this situation? Your kindness has killed the cat you might say. Your a LL for gosh sake not a policeman or social worker. I couldn't even read all the junk you wrote cause most had nothing to do with what YOUR suppose to be doing as owner.

You have bullying- theft you have B&E you have disturbing the peace, fighting and god knows what else.

Have tenant call police and follow through with court- get the restraining order--- that might force these people to move since they won't be able to get back ONTO the property.

Let the cops do there job and court. Let the cops document for you whats happeneing.

WOW. This site used to be a feeling great to get advice from the many landlords that I posted with on here a few years ago. Back then they really tried to help and were not so focused attacking the poster.

I am NOT emotionally involved other than it affecting my sister. I WANT these people out but I have to follow the law, which give them a chance to cure the problems before I can do anything to get them out.

I tried to make it easy for them to move out, by adding an extra day, NOT for them, but for me. I couldn't give 2 heaps about them finding a place, I just want them gone, so if my termination date, helps set them up to get out, it is worth it.

I have done eviction cases before and won every single one of them for what I was asking for. Still, there is no way to be able to collect in this state, except garnish wages, in which they can claim it would put them in hardship, which I am sure they will do, and I would not be able to garnish wages either.I prefer to get them out, rather than go to court but won't offer cash for keys. I won't reward crappy tenants.

As stated in the post, if it was too long for you, scroll by. No one forces anyone to read anything here. I tried to find a way to delete this post but could not find anything to do so. I used to be on here a lot and now I won't be posting again.