1K a week whether he works 30 or 40 hours. We always have at least 30 hrs. anything over 40 hrs is 40 per hr. we supply his work van and all materials-- along with an Amex card with 1K limit.

$60-$75K would be on the high end in my area. Price around and find out what Pro HVAC and Plumbers W-2 earners make (not the business owner, you want the hired help), cut that in half and start there. I say cut in half because he won't be doing high-skill jobs all the time. Some days he'll be pulling weeds and hauling trash.

Maybe work up an expectations of duties and figure what % of the time he'll be doing those.

Example:

Skilled trade (HVAC, plumbing): 25%

General labor (hauling, mowing): 40%

Semi-skilled (painting, carpentry): 30%

Go-fer: 5%.

Then figure out the pay for those jobs and "weight" them by the amount of time he'd be doing them.

Sid MO you know I rearly disagree with you and in your post I agree with your calculations. However your last paragraph last sentence-- I don't agree with that.

The idea of paying MY GUY- MY TRUSTED GUY is to pay him more then the going rate. I try to treat him above all other employee's or contractors and show him that TRUST every day. He's not family but he is family-- if that makes sense. I/we developed him over a few years and at this point want to keep him for as long as he can work with us.

I ask because Im trying to find that line to cross.

NE PA Hey I've walked in your shoes. I didn't always have the quantity I have now. I survived by paying the guys (subs) more then they billed/harged. I know you think CRAZY but having subs at your beck and call was worth it. Never questioned billing from MY regular guys-- I mean never. After a few years - even with just a few property's you get to know costs- . For example my AC guy-- the licensed one-- he works for the school system-- known him for years. Bills 400- send 500. Again the extra 100.00 will not break me (or you). when its 120Degrees out and a unit is down-- he's there and no B S excusses.

Myob, I do have subs I can call for the technical stuff, the high stuff, and the heavy stuff. I do most everything else or grunt labor helps occasionally for between $12.50- $18.00.

The original post is talking about a full time guy and Sisco mentioned 65k-70k for a guy. Not sure what this guy is or does, but I'm assuming completely self sufficient for that kind of money.

So, if that is the case, I am going to assume that I would need to pay someone $35-$40 for 30 hours a week for 50 weeks a year in order to move to a "tools out of the truck" position in my business.

Lets say it's $35 an hour. That's $1050 a week, not including comp. you could add 25% to that, so $1,250 a week if you want to run aboveboard.

50 weeks a year comes out to $62,500 a year with 2 weeks off, so Sisco is close on his number.

Now, that labor cost "aint comin outta my pocket, baby"! It has to come from the rent income.

So on the high end, I want $250 positive cashflow after expenses on a unit when I'm buying. I'll go as low as $185 per unit if the deal is sweet and smooth.

$62,500 per year for a jack of all trades handyman at $185 per unit means I need another 337 units. 250 units if I can find the properties that cashflow at my $250 target.

337 units! Financed the way that I've been buying for the last 13 years. I may be able to cut that number in half or 2/3 if I bought all cash. So 1/2 would be 168 units or 2/3 would 112 units all cash.

I'm a math guy. Is my math wrong? Trying to wrap my head around this "hire it all out" philosophy doesn't work unless a landlords numbers are HUGE!

I know there are a tremendous number of variable here, that's why I made my analysis as basic as possible and as local to my scenario as possible.

For me, the basic answer is to buy 112 more units for all cash or 337 financed. (rough numbers obviously)

It is what it is, the math isn't wrong. Maybe the application of the philosophy is incorrect, but the math isn't.

NE, exactly. I think your math is right on target, even though I didn't check it. Here's why:

your number are awesome and really well thought out.

My guy-- I set up a sole proprietor business. Got him a license to work and company name. He does work (not much) on his time off helping others. So he's self employed. $25.00 an hour & 2 weeks extra pay for his not taking vacation.

Sid

There is No Way one ft maintenance guy can handle 200 units.. I would never use a PM if one existed where i am.

Ive seem the worst results with a PM.

I provide the van, phone and all tools. “Van” includes gas, tires, insurance, repairs, etc. I pay $11.50 per hour and pay bi-weekly. I guarantee 10 hours per bi-weekly period. Anything over 40 hrs/wk is time and a half. I also pay $100 per bi-weekly period on top of his hourly wages. He is the first call for everything except HVAC. He also mows lawns on empty houses and always mows duplexes/triplexes. He does most of the turnovers by himself. Some of these on inherited tenants have been pretty extensive. By the time I pay SS/MC, workers comp, figure the standard mileage on the van, tools, etc., my all-in cost is about $25/hr for an annual average.

There are many things he does that I could get done cheaper. There are also many things he does that would cost me more. It’s not about saving money - it’s about providing excellent service to my residents and saving me time and headache. When a tenant calls with a problem, I don’t have to go down my list calling several people to see who can look at it the quickest, I text or e-mail one guy and he handles it.

As far as this vs. DIY is concerned, I did DIY almost 100% up until 2011 when I went back to work at a W2 full-time due to a family situation that I won’t discuss here. By then I had grown to the point that working FT, DIY, and my sanity weren’t compatible, so I hired this guy. Most of you will think I’m crazy, but he was a tenant then and still is. It’s never been a problem. He and his wife pay rent on time and I pay him on time. The transactions are unrelated.

Mike Pa brings up another excellent point, 1 ft guy isn't going to handle 200 units.

PLUS and this is a BIG ONE, with an additional 200 units, I now have 10x the office work which requires another staff member, maybe 2. Then if you run 10-15% vacant rate, you're looking at 20-30 open units at any given time.

It's a delicate dance or juggling act. :)

Myob, most of my portfolio leads come right to my cell and I make those #1 on my list. I check those deals out asap. I'm not concerned about losing deals while being at the properties. Looking at deals is #1 for me.

I do find it interesting and chomped at the bit for it for a while, it's just the whole practical application thing that eludes me.

Thinking about this more, I need a bigger "Why?".

My original "Why" got me to where I am today, but it's not big enough to go much further than the boundaries of just adding another house to the portfolio.

NE, I was only answering the question asked. What annual salary would attract/retain an experienced HVAC/plumber who handles most any maintenance/repairs. We have some forum posters who think this may be achieved at $40k.

If I were in Steve's shoes I would be concerned that I have no end in sight of breakdowns and maintenance. So much so that this is a full time position.

If I were in your shoes I would change up the operation with the goal of a business that did not require me to donate my labor. With your skills and experience, I have no doubt that you can be very highly compensated in the marketplace.

Don't donate your labor as a business plan.

Why don't you ask him? He will have to be sure to understand that he may work very few hours one week but more than usual in other weeks. The one I have just likes the idea of getting paid even when he doesn't work.

In fact he feels bad about it but I remind him he always makes up for it.

NE PA to be clear we didn't start out with a full time guy. It was me and my wife and two kids 10 and 13 when we started. We didn't buy 10 at a time or 300. Jumping into an additional 300 units is well "crazy" and really when you say WHY I have to throw that back to you WHY? What is enough? HOW many? I've thought about this many years believe me. Do I need to own BOTH sides of the street? Is only one side good. YOU BET it is.

Keep in mind that most handymen will take less money in exchange for steady work. My do-it-all handyman charges me $35/hr but just took a F/T job for $19/hr because he wanted the security of a paycheck.

Sounds about right, I wish I could hire my handyman full time I'm not quite big enough yet. Pay him $60k a year and give him a van, etc.

My tipping point is 50 units, I'll look to get a full time person. At 200 units I'd want a leasing agent and a book keeper/office lady full time.

I cheat because my other business is construction and I have a never ending supply of subs on that side of the business to do whatever the rentals need doing. If I didn't have the construction business it would be different.