Lets assume you have a SFH that has come vacant and it needs some upgrades and some repairs. This is a small 2/1 -700 square foot house.

1. Remove 10 existing windows and replace with new double pane vinyl windows.

2. Install 5 new 'home-run' 20 amp electrical outlets,...one in each room.

3. Make small drywall repairs - ie. door knob type holes in walls

4. Paint the entire inside of the house - including the doors and ceilings.

5. After painting is done, clean the entire house - both inside and out.

6. Mow the lawn and trim the hedges

My question is: Would you do the above jobs yourself or Hire it Out ?

If you choose to DIY,...what is your reason(s) ?

I would hire out the windows, cleaning and lawn care. Everything else is just another day at the office.

NE,

When you have tenants using space heaters in each room,..yes.. 5 dedicated circuits are needed. 2 (15 amp) heaters on one circuit will trip the breaker.

Sorry for the triple post. Thinking more about it, no I don't agree you need 5 dedicated circuits.

I would run 12-2 on a 20 amp breaker to the kitchen and the pick up the bathroom. I would then do the same to the living room and then pick up the 2 bedrooms. 2 circuits.

Also, I wouldn't do this solely for the purpose of them running space heaters. I'd get a heating system installed.

This post is NOT about how to rehab a house or how many dedicated circuits are actually needed. We can discuss that at the next Mr. LL convention.

Now,..speaking of the next Mr. LL convention,...the theme this years is "Do Less / Make More Money".

I made this post in direct response to that theme. The real question here is this: How do I do less (with a typical vacancy that needs repairs/upgrades) AND make more money???

Is it in my best interest to hire it all out OR do the jobs that I am capable of and then hire out the rest?

Things change as I get older. Years ago, I probably would have DIY for all of it. Now my back is not as strong, but my wallet is fatter, but I have more time.

In my case right now, I would hire out the windows and electric (and plumbing). I will mention, the person(s) I hire are people I work with doing a project, so I am still watching what they do, doing the supply run, and more of the little stuff.

I would hire it.

I doubt that I would replace windows in a house as described. I would not home run 5 20 amp services for space heater heat. I believe that your tenants are trying to destroy your house .

Sisco,

Old worn out windows create a huge maintenance issue with me at every turnover. If I can do anything that reduces maintenance cost at turnover,..then I make more money. Installing Allure instead of carpet is great example of this. Installing Allure has cut my floor maintenance cost down to almost nothing. New windows reduces my maintenance cost also and they attract better tenants.

No, my tenants are not trying to destroy my house. You have a tendency to make too many incorrect assumptions about my houses and tenants.

Windows go to my $30/hr guy.

Electrical outlets go to my electrician. I don't mess with electricity.

Drywall repairs, painting, and cleaning go to my $10/hr guy.

Yard work goes to my yard guy, for about $40.

They'll get it done sooner than I would. They would get it done better than I would. The thing that I could do is painting... I'm about half as fast as my husband, and twice as fast as my $10/hr guy. :) But at least my handyguy starts the project, and sticks with it, versus me, who am always getting tugged in many different directions, and I lack the focus that I could have if it was just the biz.

1. Remove 10 existing windows and replace with new double pane vinyl windows. (Hire it out. Why time, they are much faster and cost savings)

2. Install 5 new 'home-run' 20 amp electrical outlets,...one in each room. (Hire it out, more qualified, safety, time)

3. Make small drywall repairs - ie. door knob type holes in walls ( DYI, can do while waiting for windows and electric repairs, cheap, i can, to pay some one would cost three or four times what it should, cause it's a small thing)

4. Paint the entire inside of the house - including the doors and ceilings. (I like to paint, would consider doing this if i felt like it, it's a small house, but if i found someone to do it for under$500 and i buy paint, i would let them, saves time)

5. After painting is done, clean the entire house - both inside and out. ( i would do this, cause i get to know the house better and can catch small details)

6. Mow the lawn and trim the hedges ( this is also therapy time for me, nice weather i would consider doing it, cold or wet conditions, or if I'm painting I'd hire it out and have it done while I'm painting, clone yourself)

My question is: Would you do the above jobs yourself or Hire it Out ?

Roy, for the reason that I would hire out this work, it would be expensive; therefore, I would pass on the window/ electrical upgrades.

We are discussing a cheap house in an area that has no price appreciation. Were we discussing A different house in a different area, I probably would have a different opinion about window replacement.

My guess (shaped by experience) is that cheap vinyl clad windows exposed to Alabama summers will need repairs too.

Often times it's worth doing it yourself if your doing the right work. I have to wonder if those circuits are the right answer i.e., the right work.

Wasting time doing DIY, is simply a waste and may make things worth hiring.

It also doesn't do anyone any good hiring out the wrong work either.

Will the electrician tell you the circuits are a bad idea or will he do what you want and bill you regardless? That's deserving of an answer, not only for this, but for many landlord's who want something done that isn't necessary.

Deanna,

Last week, I hired (2) $10.00/hr. people to paint this house. I had to babysit both of them and before the end of the day, I fired both of them. I then called a professional painting company and they quoted me $1,500.00 to paint everything (they hate painting ceilings) and I turned them down and just started doing the painting myself.

When I did the majority of work myself, I'd have hired out 1 (new windows) & 2 (electrical outlets) and possibly 4 (painting) - depending on what else was going on at the time. Everything else I'd have done myself.

I still do a lot but not major time commitment projects. Someone half my age can do the work in half the time it takes me. I still do a lot of small, quick easy fixes/projects by myself as I can do it quicker than I can explain what I want done to someone else.

Ken said, "Roy,you are good at finding deals,if you want to you could start finding deals all day long and supervise guys doing the work and just have the new houses cleaned out and resell as is."

Great answer Ken!!! Not too long ago, I use to spend my 'spare time' finding deals for other investors. This worked out great and was very profitable until it backfired on me. I no longer find deals for other investors,..I am done with that.

What I am trying to do now is to maximize my profit with the existing rental house inventory (15) that I have now. I do not need more houses,...I need to learn to squeeze the most profit out of what I have now.

Roy, if you're not growing your inventory anymore, one great way to squeeze MORE profit out is to DIY.

Roy, what's your goal? You said to make more money and do less....i.e. the Convention theme.

The only way you can do BOTH is if the value you bring to the table doing activity X is more than activity Y, and it FURTHER ASSUMES that there is enough activity X to fill your time.

We each have (as David likes to remind us) 24 hours in a day.

We each allocated some many hours for "work", "play", "eat", "sleep", "drink beer", etc.

Lets say you have 10 hours for "work".

If you are not busy replacing windows or patching drywall, what else would you be doing? Would you be scouting for more deals (high $ activity) or mowing yards (low $ activity)? Or would you just sit around the house and do nothing (no $ value, but perhaps very high FREEDOM value).

I would hire those jobs done....all of them. Here are the reasons you asked for: 1) I don't have the expertise to run electric circuits and hang windows 2) I don't like being on my knees all day for several days doing flooring. 3) Windows, electric, and flooring are the big jobs in this scenario, and if the hired guys are already there it makes sense to let them do the other work as well.

Yes, I have folks who can do all this stuff. They range in price from $25/hour (paint, windows, floors, etc) up to $50/hour (electrical work).

Sid,

Remind me,...and we will continue this discussion in St. Louis. Maybe Jeffrey will give us some additional ideas on how to "Do Less and Make More Money".

hire out

windows

paint, prep, clean, lawn make ready

If I had time, I'd do the electric

Roy, assuming you don't have a go-to handyman to do all of this, are you getting several bids from different people for everything?

How much time are you spending getting bids vs just doing it?

We can certainly continue the conversation, Roy. It's a good one.

I know some folks who carry paper. As has been discussed here many times, 95% of these deals fail to complete, and often there is much deferred or shoddy maintenance work.

Many home buyers today want perfect homes with zero maintenance. Think of your average tenant who calls you when the toilet gets plugged or a light bulb burns out. We have to ask, is it wise to trust that person to swap out a water heater?

Everyone thinks their drunk uncle who once worked for an HVAC contractor as a "go-fer" to get parts is an expert at fixing everything. He is the one who will be doing work on these owner-financed houses.

NE,

I have a 75 year old go-to handyman who will be installing my new windows. He is a master carpenter and can do many things, but he is a horrible painter.

In addition to a great handyman, I have a roofer, an electrician, plumber and an attorney which I give regular business too and they cut me a deal on being a regular customer.

Roy, except for the electrical (I'm not licensed for electrical work) I would either have my own crew do the carpentry stuff, my cleaner do the make it look beautiful stuff, one of my niece's kids do the yard work. If we were swamped with our regular paying projects I have 2 different handymen that could do everything except the windows (they are not RRP certified).

Roy, I quit my day job before I bought my first property and haven't looked back since.

NE,

Can I assume rents are your only income? If yes, then you know what it is like being down in the trenches and having to watch every dollar that comes in and goes out of the checkbook.

Do less, makeover money. Regarding the electric outlets for space heaters- Search / screen for applicants who will use the nice gas heaters you already have. Put it right in your ad. Then make those gas heaters prominent in your in-boarding process. Boldly! Done!

for the other stuff, for me, I tend to hire out the stuff where I can get it done right, with minimal supervision, as I have little patience for babysitting adults. So, I pay more up front, but don't have to revisit those items. Like windows. WW and done.

For me, making money is about getting good tenants and keeping them longer. Other landlords in my area have yearly turnovers. Training, communication enables me to keep tenants longer, so lesser turnovers.

You are an excellent communicator on this board. Use those skills with your tenants to extend length of stay, get referrals for other good tenants. You can be the guy who has a list of five to ten well-qualified applicants at all times waiting for you to have an open unit. (Well qualified is class specific, IMO. Class C tenants can be great, if you communicate well, and Roy, you do!)

Building is going crazy in my area, and so finding good help is getting tougher. My go-to handyman is booked way out.

I don't have a lot of DIY experience except in fixing drywall holes (I am an artiste!), painting, gardening and cleaning. Out of necesiity, I am learning minor plumbing and electrical repairs.

My standard is 1) watch a few You Tube videos on the task that needs to be done, 2) try it if it looks doable. Worse case, I could always call the handyman. I am so proud of myself when I can fix something, it is embarassing.

I would hire out the windows.

Licensed, insured and bonded skilled help doesn't come cheap. If you hire subs, you will be taken to the cleaners.

Unlicensed, uninsured w/o bond unskilled help is out there. Do you really want to hire them? they could be your nightmare.

If you know these trades and have experience...do them yourself, and save big. Caution: Trades like electrical, windows and plumbing have penalties (future damages) for doing jobs which don't meet code.

The key to making money in landlording is to be able to make a vacancy ready in the least time possible. So you decide how to achieve that goal.

Short answer:

I hire out what I don't like to do and do the rest myself IF I am not slowing down the job.

I'd rather pay the job to someone else and have it ready in a week than do everything myself and lose a month's rent.

So... If I have time, and I like the job (and I like many of them) I'll DI myself. If time is an issue or I hate the job, I'll always hire it out.

Roy,

I've been the bank on a few occasions. But selling outright is certainly the easier way to go.

So far none of my owner finance deals have gone wrong (I had eight of them, one recently paid me off.) I only gave them to folks with an excellent payment history and who didn't need me to finance them but we went that route so it was a win-win for both sides.

LisaFL- Will you be at the convention? If yes, I need to talk with you about your owner-finance deals. I will buy you dinner too. If no, well, I am SOL. I will just have to find someone else at the convention who has done owner-finance deals to talk with.

Ken (NY) - I have always been a buy and hold type investor. Buying cheap and then re-selling (flipping) has never been a part of my mindset. Everything I have bought dirt cheap gets rehabbed and rented out for max. cash flow. For the last 12 years, I have followed a very simple investment strategy (Jay DeCima was my mentor) of buying, rehabbing and renting them out and I am just now beginning to reap some serious rewards from it.

regardless of what you do and what you hire out, you will still need to mange what's hired out.

After 30 yrs in this business I can honestly say I've seen more crappy work from licensed contractors than from a drunk guy looking for beer money. So my point is just because its hired out doesn't mean its gonna be done correctly.

Mike,

I completely agree with you. I hire out a lot of work and I manage each one of them. I am there when they are actually doing the work and this is good because they know I am watching them. Just because someone is licensed and insured does not guarantee you jack $hit.

Ken,