ESA pig kicked off plane
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ESA pig kicked off plane (by BRAD 20,000 [IN]) Nov 16, 2017 1:21 AM
       ESA pig kicked off plane (by Roy [AL]) Nov 16, 2017 1:47 AM
       ESA pig kicked off plane (by NE [PA]) Nov 16, 2017 3:32 AM
       ESA pig kicked off plane (by Doogie [KS]) Nov 16, 2017 4:35 AM
       ESA pig kicked off plane (by S i d [MO]) Nov 16, 2017 6:13 AM
       ESA pig kicked off plane (by moby [IN]) Nov 16, 2017 6:29 AM
       ESA pig kicked off plane (by John... [MI]) Nov 16, 2017 6:30 AM
       ESA pig kicked off plane (by #22 [MO]) Nov 16, 2017 7:04 AM
       ESA pig kicked off plane (by S i d [MO]) Nov 16, 2017 7:27 AM
       ESA pig kicked off plane (by BRAD 20,000 [IN]) Nov 16, 2017 8:27 AM
       ESA pig kicked off plane (by John... [MI]) Nov 16, 2017 8:36 AM
       ESA pig kicked off plane (by LisaFL [FL]) Nov 16, 2017 8:47 AM
       ESA pig kicked off plane (by Livethedream [AZ]) Nov 16, 2017 10:54 AM
       ESA pig kicked off plane (by cjo'h [CT]) Nov 16, 2017 11:09 AM
       ESA pig kicked off plane (by S i d [MO]) Nov 16, 2017 11:48 AM
       ESA pig kicked off plane (by Landlord ofthe Flies [TX]) Nov 16, 2017 1:34 PM
       ESA pig kicked off plane (by John... [MI]) Nov 16, 2017 1:36 PM
       ESA pig kicked off plane (by LisaFL [FL]) Nov 16, 2017 1:56 PM
       ESA pig kicked off plane (by Lana [IN]) Nov 16, 2017 4:02 PM
       ESA pig kicked off plane (by Vee [OH]) Nov 16, 2017 6:30 PM
       ESA pig kicked off plane (by John... [MI]) Nov 16, 2017 6:36 PM
       ESA pig kicked off plane (by LisaFL [FL]) Nov 16, 2017 7:24 PM
       ESA pig kicked off plane (by RB [MI]) Nov 17, 2017 5:59 AM
       ESA pig kicked off plane (by John... [MI]) Nov 17, 2017 6:00 AM
       ESA pig kicked off plane (by LisaFL [FL]) Nov 17, 2017 6:33 AM
       ESA pig kicked off plane (by John... [MI]) Nov 17, 2017 7:40 AM
       ESA pig kicked off plane (by Don [PA]) Nov 17, 2017 11:01 AM
       ESA pig kicked off plane (by LisaFL [FL]) Nov 17, 2017 12:06 PM
       ESA pig kicked off plane (by LisaFL [FL]) Nov 17, 2017 12:12 PM
       ESA pig kicked off plane (by John... [MI]) Nov 17, 2017 1:01 PM
       ESA pig kicked off plane (by John... [MI]) Nov 17, 2017 1:04 PM
       ESA pig kicked off plane (by cjo'h [CT]) Nov 17, 2017 1:33 PM
       ESA pig kicked off plane (by cjo'h [CT]) Nov 17, 2017 1:39 PM
       ESA pig kicked off plane (by Don [MO]) Nov 18, 2017 5:28 AM
       ESA pig kicked off plane (by LisaFL [FL]) Nov 18, 2017 7:01 AM
       ESA pig kicked off plane (by WMH [NC]) Nov 18, 2017 7:02 AM
       ESA pig kicked off plane (by WMH [NC]) Nov 18, 2017 7:04 AM
       ESA pig kicked off plane (by LisaFL [FL]) Nov 18, 2017 7:13 AM
       ESA pig kicked off plane (by John... [MI]) Nov 19, 2017 6:22 PM
       ESA pig kicked off plane (by Ray-N-Pa [PA]) Nov 22, 2017 7:10 PM
       ESA pig kicked off plane (by Mickie [OH]) Nov 23, 2017 4:50 AM
       ESA pig kicked off plane (by John... [MI]) Nov 23, 2017 3:10 PM
       ESA pig kicked off plane (by LisaFL [FL]) Nov 24, 2017 9:40 AM
       ESA pig kicked off plane (by John... [MI]) Nov 24, 2017 7:44 PM
       ESA pig kicked off plane (by LisaFL [FL]) Nov 25, 2017 12:03 AM
       ESA pig kicked off plane (by John... [MI]) Nov 25, 2017 5:03 PM
       ESA pig kicked off plane (by BRAD 20,000 [I]) Nov 25, 2017 5:37 PM
       ESA pig kicked off plane (by John... [MI]) Nov 26, 2017 6:17 AM
       ESA pig kicked off plane (by LisaFL [FL]) Nov 26, 2017 7:31 AM
       ESA pig kicked off plane (by John... [MI]) Nov 26, 2017 9:56 AM
       ESA pig kicked off plane (by LisaFL [FL]) Nov 26, 2017 10:54 AM
       ESA pig kicked off plane (by John... [MI]) Nov 28, 2017 7:34 AM
       ESA pig kicked off plane (by BRAD 20,000 [IN]) Dec 1, 2017 9:41 AM

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ESA pig kicked off plane (by BRAD 20,000 [IN]) Posted on: Nov 16, 2017 1:21 AM
Message:

Today's news:

American Airlines/ US Airways forced a woman off a flight because her ESA pig was "wreaking havoc", running up and down the aisle.

BRAD

--68.51.xx.xxx




ESA pig kicked off plane (by Roy [AL]) Posted on: Nov 16, 2017 1:47 AM
Message:

Brad20K,

The real problem with America these days is that we have "too many freedoms". When someone is allowed to bring an ESA pig on an airliner is such as example. What will it be next,...a 6 ft. boa constrictor? I have quit taking commercial flights,..it just too crazy now. --68.63.xxx.xxx




ESA pig kicked off plane (by NE [PA]) Posted on: Nov 16, 2017 3:32 AM
Message:

This whole ESA thing is such nonsense. Thankfully the clowns that "need" an emotional support animal have so many other issues that they are easily disqualified. --50.107.xxx.xxx




ESA pig kicked off plane (by Doogie [KS]) Posted on: Nov 16, 2017 4:35 AM
Message:

What happened to leaning on family when times are tough??? --98.175.xxx.xxx




ESA pig kicked off plane (by S i d [MO]) Posted on: Nov 16, 2017 6:13 AM
Message:

A victory for common sense. Glad to know it's not completely dead. --173.19.xx.xxx




ESA pig kicked off plane (by moby [IN]) Posted on: Nov 16, 2017 6:29 AM
Message:

I have to wonder how much emotional support a person feels when they are being stared at with contempt and cursed under ones breath as they carry their animal around in the grocery store.

I believe I understand some mental illness but this is getting silly. --68.60.xxx.xx




ESA pig kicked off plane (by John... [MI]) Posted on: Nov 16, 2017 6:30 AM
Message:

This is great news for us. Basically, the ONLY people that have to deal with ESAs are airlines and landlords. That's it -- everyone else has no ESA laws to worry about.

So, the more the airlines fight this -- the better off we are as landlords.

- John...

--207.241.xxx.xxx




ESA pig kicked off plane (by #22 [MO]) Posted on: Nov 16, 2017 7:04 AM
Message:

This is good news.

--173.25.xx.xx




ESA pig kicked off plane (by S i d [MO]) Posted on: Nov 16, 2017 7:27 AM
Message:

John...I agree that the more airlines fight this, the better for us. But my understanding is there wasn't really a "fight" per se regarding any existing rules. The ESA rules already state that the animal must generally behave itself, I believe. That applies to common carriers and to us. So...yeah, nice that the airlines stood up for their rights and (so far) haven't been sued. Maybe if more people see how the policy is being abused it will increase pressure to clarify laws and/or increase protections for those of us on the other side.

My understanding is if an ESA is "wreaking havoc" when I do my in-house visit and/or it is readily observable that the animal is causing damages or the owner is not cleaning up after the animal (lots of feces in the yard/inside; house stinks strongly of animal odor--I'm not talking wet dog...I mean urine, poop, etc), then I can deny the application without breaking the law.

There are TONS of legit ways to handle ESAs that are causing damage or disturbing other residents. The only place we get caught is not being able to charge the animal fees. So my thought there is if the animal is doing ANY type of annoying behavior and/or I feel the tenant snuck in a pet under cover of the ESA rules, I simply non-renew the lease and do not give a cause, which is allowed in my state. --173.19.xx.xxx




ESA pig kicked off plane (by BRAD 20,000 [IN]) Posted on: Nov 16, 2017 8:27 AM
Message:

_____. ______. _______. When pigs fly!

BRAD --68.51.xx.xxx




ESA pig kicked off plane (by John... [MI]) Posted on: Nov 16, 2017 8:36 AM
Message:

Sid: In THIS case, where the animal misbehaved, sure. But our problem, as landlords, is the ongoing use of "faked" ESAs. (And by "faked" I don't even mean actual fake -- I mean that it is way too easy to get a doctor to write you a note that makes it a valid ESA.)

The real issue isn't ESAs that misbehave like this one. The real issue is people using ESA laws to get around no-pet rules.

That is why I say that any time an airline deals with an ESA in some public way, it is usually good for us. In this case, sure, it was a misbehaving one. But, other times, that isn't the case. The more airlines deal with ESA issues, the better it will be for us, I think.

- John...

--207.241.xxx.xxx




ESA pig kicked off plane (by LisaFL [FL]) Posted on: Nov 16, 2017 8:47 AM
Message:

But seriously, how can people be so stupid to intentially idenify themselves as having emotional problems just to force a landlord to take their pet? Do they think that's going to bump them to the top of the applicant pool?

If I had two applicants and one had a pet and the other an ESA I'm going to gravitate to the one who isn't advertising their mental problems because who wants to deal with that if given a choice? Not to mention preferring the pet owner who is willing to pay for the priviledge of being allowed to have a pet.

This easily to fake business has done nothing but hurt those who have genuine needs as well as raised the cost of things for both tenants and landlords.

The only group it has potentially helped is honest pet owners. --173.170.xxx.xxx




ESA pig kicked off plane (by Livethedream [AZ]) Posted on: Nov 16, 2017 10:54 AM
Message:

Roy, I'd change that from "too many freedoms" to absolutely no common sense or consideration for others.

I think I'm going to get an emotional support rattlesnake next time I fly commercial. Pretty sure I'll have plenty of leg room when I casually mention that it got loose. ;) --47.216.xx.xxx




ESA pig kicked off plane (by cjo'h [CT]) Posted on: Nov 16, 2017 11:09 AM
Message:

Brad,sounds like you could have quite a few slices of nice bacon for breakfast with that baby.doesn't even have to be smoked. Charlie................................................................................... --174.199.xx.xxx




ESA pig kicked off plane (by S i d [MO]) Posted on: Nov 16, 2017 11:48 AM
Message:

We are on the same page (maybe even the same sentence), John. Any time an ESA--real or fake--misbehaves, it is more likely someone in a position of power will create solid protections for folks like us who are being scammed. --173.19.xx.xxx




ESA pig kicked off plane (by Landlord ofthe Flies [TX]) Posted on: Nov 16, 2017 1:34 PM
Message:

Guessing my emotional support skunk and I will not be flying American. --108.69.xxx.xxx




ESA pig kicked off plane (by John... [MI]) Posted on: Nov 16, 2017 1:36 PM
Message:

LisaFL: You just admitted to illegal discrimination. I hope you realize that. THAT is why people are willing to "idenify themselves as having emotional problems" -- because you can't discriminate based on that. And, if you do, you're violating the law.

What you just said (that if you had two applications: one with a pet and one with an ESA, you'd lean towards the non-ESA one) is clear discrimination.

I hope that that is just frustrated reaction here and you wouldn't really do that in "real life." We're all frustrated by the fake ESAs -- but don't put yourself in legal jeopardy because of it.

- John...

--207.241.xxx.xxx




ESA pig kicked off plane (by LisaFL [FL]) Posted on: Nov 16, 2017 1:56 PM
Message:

Yes, all things being equal I'd lean towards the emotionally stable one. I don't have to take the one with emotional problems OVER an equally or better qualified alternative. They don't get priority. And if one were better qualified than the other I'd lean toward the better qualified one. --173.170.xxx.xxx




ESA pig kicked off plane (by Lana [IN]) Posted on: Nov 16, 2017 4:02 PM
Message:

"One of These Days" One of my favorite Pink Floyd songs. Just since we are speaking of flying pigs. --216.23.xxx.xx




ESA pig kicked off plane (by Vee [OH]) Posted on: Nov 16, 2017 6:30 PM
Message:

Well if they can afford the cleanups I would take them, I wanna do a home visit to see how bad my place will be in 6 weeks, like the rusty hot rod in the rear of the yard an out of control animal is not cared for enough to be very far from the farm, prolly more tenant-pig interaction needed. --76.188.xxx.xx




ESA pig kicked off plane (by John... [MI]) Posted on: Nov 16, 2017 6:36 PM
Message:

LisaFL: Yes, but you're basing your belief of "emotionally stable" on the one without the disability that is that "emotional stability."

It's like saying that you'd take the seeing applicant over the blind one because you think they'd be less likely to bang into something in your place and cause damage. That might SOUND logical to you, but it is still illegal discrimination.

So, if you have a "better qualified" tenant for legit reasons, then so be it. But, so far, your "better qualified" standard seems to be "doesn't have the disability that the other one has." That's illegal.

- John...

--96.40.xx.xx




ESA pig kicked off plane (by LisaFL [FL]) Posted on: Nov 16, 2017 7:24 PM
Message:

John MI, so far as I know we aren't required to give certain groups priority over other folks all things being equal. Just because I chose another applicant doesn't mean I've illegally discriminated against another one I didn't pick.

That could get rather ridiculous. So I pick the couple without children and a dog over the couple with children and no dog. That is a choice I'm allowed to make and doesn't mean I didn't pick the couple with children because I was discriminating against the family with children. Or am I only allowed to pick the couple with the dog over the one with children if the couple was a minority couple? When you have multiple qualified applicants you are allowed to pick the one you prefer. The reason could be as simple as you like their personalities the best or you like to give people with pets priority because they have fewer options.

Will you be telling me next that I can't sell my property either so long as someone in a protected class wants to rent it? As far as I know we still have the right to chose who we think is the best candidate. I'm not really concerned because I probably get 100 or so interested people when I have a vacancy which is rare. I'm simply not going to favor someone over all others just because they're in a special group. That's discriminating against the others.

Like applying for a job with many applicants you don't do yourself any favors by advertising yourself as being the more difficult employee to hire. --173.170.xxx.xxx




ESA pig kicked off plane (by RB [MI]) Posted on: Nov 17, 2017 5:59 AM
Message:

Another (Amazing) example of how One Person can

inconvenience so Many Others.

--71.13.xx.xxx




ESA pig kicked off plane (by John... [MI]) Posted on: Nov 17, 2017 6:00 AM
Message:

This isn't about giving one "priority" over the other. That isn't what you did. You pretty much said that if you had two otherwise equal tenants -- except that one had a "pet" and the other had an "ESA" -- then you would go with the "pet" tenant because they didn't have "emotional stability" issues.

That is NOT giving "priority" to anyone. That is DISCRIMINATING against the one that has told you that they have a mental disability.

I don't see what the confusion is here? You're clearly discriminating, in that case, against the one with the disability. You flat out state it.

Of course, if you have some OTHER reason to take the non-disability person over the other, then so be it. But that isn't what you said or even suggested here. You said that your reason for taking the one over the other was because you didn't want "mental instability" there. That IS the disability specifically!

So, again, no one is telling you that you can't still take one tenant over another for certain reasons. It isn't saying that you have to "prioritize" the disabled person above anyone else. But, again, that ISN'T what you were doing. The ONLY reason you gave in your example was that the disabled person had mental issues that you didn't want to deal with. That was it! That's pretty clearly discrimination based on the disability!

- John...

--207.241.xxx.xxx




ESA pig kicked off plane (by LisaFL [FL]) Posted on: Nov 17, 2017 6:33 AM
Message:

Well when you have multiple equally qualified individuals you have to decide between them. You can't unlearn what you've learned about them. Landlords are human afterall and all things being equal they are likely going to chose the tenant with less baggage.

Thus people deciding it's worth claiming they have emotional issues to merely attempt to force special consideration aren't doing themselves any favors. Not until landlords and/or others are forced to give them priority and that hasn't happened yet, thank goodness. --173.170.xxx.xxx




ESA pig kicked off plane (by John... [MI]) Posted on: Nov 17, 2017 7:40 AM
Message:

Well, when you're in court in front of a judge going "Well, they were equally qualified so I had to decide between them and decided to go with the one without the disability because I didn't want to deal with emotional stability", I wish you luck.

:)

Long story short: As is always said here, find some other reason. It is very, very rare that people are really all "equally qualified" -- WITHOUT having to include disability in that list to determine who to take.

- John...

--207.241.xxx.xxx




ESA pig kicked off plane (by Don [PA]) Posted on: Nov 17, 2017 11:01 AM
Message:

Yeah, Lisa, you would be sunk. Legally, it would be like saying (" I had two otherwise equal applicants, so I decided to go with the white one" --73.141.xxx.xxx




ESA pig kicked off plane (by LisaFL [FL]) Posted on: Nov 17, 2017 12:06 PM
Message:

LOL! John, what makes you think I'd say that? I could come up with any number of reasons for choosing one over another. I wouldn't not pick the one with the emotional issues because of the emotional issues. I'd pick the family with the pet whose kids are enrolled in the nearby school because they're more likely to be longer term tenants. I'm not going to pick the special needs tenant over all others as that would be reverse discrimination. I just that I can think of very few instances where the tenant with issues is the superior choice over all other applicants but if indeed they are they'd get first dibs!

But potential tenants don't do themselves any favors by advertising their issues or personal problems. Because once that seed is planted it's hard to ignore. And that is just a fact. --173.170.xxx.xxx




ESA pig kicked off plane (by LisaFL [FL]) Posted on: Nov 17, 2017 12:12 PM
Message:

Well Don, what if I picked the equally qualified minority family with three kids over the white man with the emotional support pitbull? Am I allowed to do that? It gets pretty ridiculous. At that rate housing will be in short supply for the average white guy who everyone is afraid to rent to out of fear of not picking someone in a protected class. --173.170.xxx.xxx




ESA pig kicked off plane (by John... [MI]) Posted on: Nov 17, 2017 1:01 PM
Message:

So you'd take the ones with kids over the ones without? Now you're probably violating familial status too. It goes both ways as far as discrimination goes -- reverse-discrimination can still be discrimination. :)

That being said -- all I said was what everyone else was saying: find some other reason then.

And, again, NO ONE HERE suggested that you should "pick the special needs tenant over all the others." NO ONE said that at all -- and yet you keep falling back to that as your excuse. But that isn't what you said. You said that if things were otherwise equal, you'd take the non-disabled one because you didn't want to deal with the mental issues. THAT is what is the illegal discrimination that we're warning about.

You say that you can "think of very few instances where the tenant with issues is the superior choice." It once again sounds like you are trying to INCLUDE THE DISABILITY in that analysis of which is the "superior choice." And that is exactly what you aren't allowed to do.

It may be "hard to ignore" the disability. You're still required by law to do exactly that. IGNORE it and then make the choice. Not INCLUDE it in your analysis of what the "best" choice is.

- John...

--207.241.xxx.xxx




ESA pig kicked off plane (by John... [MI]) Posted on: Nov 17, 2017 1:04 PM
Message:

LisaFL: It isn't nearly as "ridiculous" or complex as you make it out to me. You simply IGNORE whatever the protected class issue is and make your decision based on everything else.

You simply don't consider whether or not they are black, white, male, female, a senior citizen, a single mother, have kids, have no kids, is blind, has a Service Animal, and so on in making your decision.

That's not "ridiculous." It's simple. It's the law.

- John...

--207.241.xxx.xxx




ESA pig kicked off plane (by cjo'h [CT]) Posted on: Nov 17, 2017 1:33 PM
Message:

What are you all bickering about,look at yourselves.You put someone in charge of the country with mental problems,who is likely to run the country down the tubes,and you think that is all right.It's not.That was not what the Founding Fathers meant when they drew up the Declaration.Charlie........................... --174.199.x.xxx




ESA pig kicked off plane (by cjo'h [CT]) Posted on: Nov 17, 2017 1:39 PM
Message:

Landlord of the Flies, you won't be flying on too many other Airlines either,unless you get a different kind of cat.Charlie..........not on my plane,you won't............................................ --174.199.x.xxx




ESA pig kicked off plane (by Don [MO]) Posted on: Nov 18, 2017 5:28 AM
Message:

It has always been my understanding that if you have two applicants and either one would be able to qualify under your criteria (assuming you didn't know about the other one), you need to take the one who APPLIED FIRST. That is if you want to avoid getting fined/sued for discrimination.

Also after someone has applied and you've started the application review process (background and credit) which they paid you for, you shouldn't have taken any other applications. So how would you know if this other applicant is "more qualified"? --104.166.xxx.xxx




ESA pig kicked off plane (by LisaFL [FL]) Posted on: Nov 18, 2017 7:01 AM
Message:

Well if I get 50 inquiries I can prioritize which to engage first by their replies and which are most likely to qualify. I chose to engage the one that sounds like the best fit and who is most likely to pass the screening.

--173.170.xxx.xxx




ESA pig kicked off plane (by WMH [NC]) Posted on: Nov 18, 2017 7:02 AM
Message:

Don/MO, actually that is only a SUGGESTION, to absolutely avoid the impression of discrimination. But suppose you have an open house and several people submit apps? You can absolutely pick the better application. What if Tenant #1 makes barely 3x the rent, but Tenant #2 makes 4 or 5 times? What if Tenant #1 has a 650 credit score but Tenant #2 has an 850 score?

There is no law that says you have to take the first app. --173.22.xx.xx




ESA pig kicked off plane (by WMH [NC]) Posted on: Nov 18, 2017 7:04 AM
Message:

That said, if I have accepted an app from Tenant #1 and he has paid the credit and background check fee first, I won't ask Tenant #2 to pay it until I get the results from #1. (Since that takes only moments!) --173.22.xx.xx




ESA pig kicked off plane (by LisaFL [FL]) Posted on: Nov 18, 2017 7:13 AM
Message:

Yes, I do what WMH suggested. If I take an application fee to process I won't take another until the first either passes, or not.

Although I have moved on to number two after number one paid/passed but wasn't ready to immediately pay to hold the property. Since number two passed and paid to gold, number one losses out. --173.170.xxx.xxx




ESA pig kicked off plane (by John... [MI]) Posted on: Nov 19, 2017 6:22 PM
Message:

cjo'h: I certainly didn't put him in charge. Other people did... Lots of them here. :)

- John...

--96.40.xx.xx




ESA pig kicked off plane (by Ray-N-Pa [PA]) Posted on: Nov 22, 2017 7:10 PM
Message:

Was the pig required to purchase a seat? --24.101.xxx.xxx




ESA pig kicked off plane (by Mickie [OH]) Posted on: Nov 23, 2017 4:50 AM
Message:

What happens when another passenger has alergies to that esa? I myself would come down with such a mighty case of alergies I'm sure they'd have to move me to first class. And if there's an esa there they'd have to ply me with many drinks to make the symptoms go away. ;-) --71.213.xx.xxx




ESA pig kicked off plane (by John... [MI]) Posted on: Nov 23, 2017 3:10 PM
Message:

Well, here's what happened to the last person that claimed she was severely allergic to the ESA on board -- she was dragged off the plane by law enforcement:

viewfromthewing.boardingarea.com/2017/09/27/southwest-passenger-kicked-off-flight-complaining-emotional-support-animal/

Note that you ARE allowed to tell the airline that you can't travel with animals on the plane because you are allergic -- but you need a note from your doctor and need to give it to them in advance so that they can make arrangements. So, people with allergies DO have rights too.

The problem in this case was that she decided ON THE PLANE to announce that she was "severely allergic." Since she didn't give any advance notice, her only option was to get off the plane (because the ESA traveler HAD given proper notice). She then refused to leave -- and the plane couldn't take off. So, they had to call the police to have her removed so the flight could leave.

So, before anyone has the bright idea to get on a plane and THEN claim that you have the allergy to any ESAs or Service Animals onboard, I suggest you give that a lot of thought... :)

- John...

--216.176.x.xx




ESA pig kicked off plane (by LisaFL [FL]) Posted on: Nov 24, 2017 9:40 AM
Message:

Essentially if you have a bonefide allergy you have to jump through many more hoops to prove it than to simply lie about having an ESA because with an ESA they pretty much just have to take your word for it....no so for those with allergies. Majorly screwed up policy/law. --173.170.xxx.xxx




ESA pig kicked off plane (by John... [MI]) Posted on: Nov 24, 2017 7:44 PM
Message:

That is simply incorrect. Airlines do not have to "take your word for it" for ESAs. (They do for Service Animals, but not for ESAs.) Airlines are absolutely allowed to ask for documentation of an ESA and usually require it.

(Note that they often do NOT require documentation of an allergy -- just proper advance notification.)

It's a bit funny that you say what you did (allergies have to jump through hoops, but ESAs don't have to provide any documentation) -- because it is pretty much the opposite of reality. When people with allergies run into trouble is when they didn't notify the airline 48 hours before the flight as required. Other than that, it is generally the opposite of what you suggest: most airlines DO require documentation for ESAs and just require proper notification for allergies.

There is no "screw up" on the policy/law in that regard... It's just a matter of people assuming something that is different from the law and reality.

- John...

--216.176.x.xx




ESA pig kicked off plane (by LisaFL [FL]) Posted on: Nov 25, 2017 12:03 AM
Message:

Nope. EACH AIRLINE INTERPRETS ACAA GUIDELINES SLIGHTLY DIFFERENTLY. And if you purchase a certificate (fake letter) from someone who has never seen you in real life they can't deny you.

John, go ahead and fill out an application online. Answer every question the exact opposite of what you think you should to get your ESA certification letter. Amazinging, you will qualify for an ESA! They issue a letter to anyone willing to pay them for it. I've tried it on multiple site. Biggest scam ever.

So you are correct. They can ask for your letter. A letter that anyone can purchase making the whole system pretty bogus. Allergy sufferers don't have it nearly as easy. --173.170.xxx.xxx




ESA pig kicked off plane (by John... [MI]) Posted on: Nov 25, 2017 5:03 PM
Message:

Ok, you went from saying that "they pretty much just have to take your word for it" to "if you have proper documentation, then they have to take you." Those are very different things.

You can't just "purchase a certificate (fake letter)". It has to be from a healthcare professional and renewed each year for most airlines. Yes, I know there are bad "healthcare professionals" out there -- but the reality is it is certainly NOT just "they have to take your word for it for an ESA, but people with allergies have to prove it" like you implied.

From what I can tell, most of the quick-and-easy online system to generate a letter are not nearly as easy as you think any more. They generate a letter, but it is not necessarily from a "healthcare professional" as is required.

In any case, I'm done arguing about this with you. Neither of us is making any progress with the other -- and you've just changed what you last said after I explained why it was incorrect. I see no point in continuing when that is what is happening.

We all know that ESAs are abused for landlords and airlines. But just sitting and complaining about it (and making up false scenarios when it comes to how allergies are handled) isn't going to change anything. If we, as landlords, want this to change, we need two things:

1. Consequences for people that fake ESAs.

2. Consequences for "healthcare professionals" that confirm fake ESAs.

But sitting around arguing about it isn't going to make either of those happen.

- John...

--96.40.xx.xx




ESA pig kicked off plane (by BRAD 20,000 [I]) Posted on: Nov 25, 2017 5:37 PM
Message:

It is easy to get a letter from a doctor. The website connects the customer with a doctor online who can verify he interviewed the customer and signs a form letter. $59.

A ticket agent at the gate told me they donít have time to examine letters (15 minutes to get 110 people on the plane) and quite frankly donít care-not their problem. Their job is to get the plane away from the gate on time to keep the companyís ratings up.

BRAD --68.51.xx.xxx




ESA pig kicked off plane (by John... [MI]) Posted on: Nov 26, 2017 6:17 AM
Message:

Right -- so the issue is the "doctors" that are writing these letters so easily. Not with the laws about ESAs themselves. That is what I've been saying -- the issue is that these people often DO have the proper paperwork and therefore should be treated as valid. It isn't up to US to just look and go "this guy is clearly faking that ESA." We simply don't know -- even when we think we might.

If we want changes made as landlords, we need to stop complaining about what the law allows -- and concentrate on the PROCESS to get those letters. That is what needs to be changed. Otherwise, we continue to look (to the outside world) like we are against people with disabilities when we complain about ESAs. That isn't the impression we should be giving if we want real change to occur.

- John...

--71.13.xx.xx




ESA pig kicked off plane (by LisaFL [FL]) Posted on: Nov 26, 2017 7:31 AM
Message:

Of course we should complain about what the law allows. It allows for massive fraud and risk to the property and we'll being of others. It pretty much encourages it. The anger and frustration has nothing to do with being against folks with real disabilities. --173.170.xxx.xxx




ESA pig kicked off plane (by John... [MI]) Posted on: Nov 26, 2017 9:56 AM
Message:

I still maintain that us sitting around complaining about the law doesn't help much. The problem is "healthcare professionals." That is the way this needs to be fixed -- by a change to who can write that letter and/or how they have to know the patient. Some states have imposed in-person-only visits, for example -- but it is hard for a state to over-ride federal law.

So, that's what we should be pushing for -- changes to the federal law regarding who qualifies and some sort of clarification on what sort of "interview" is required before a letter can be issued.

But just complaining about the laws doesn't get us very far at all.

And making up scenarios about allergies and ESAs on planes just gets us nowhere...

- John...

--71.13.xx.xx




ESA pig kicked off plane (by LisaFL [FL]) Posted on: Nov 26, 2017 10:54 AM
Message:

Somebody with an allergy can't just pay an online letter writer to issue them an "I have an allergy letter."

Anyone who wants to bring their animal on a plane can. The standards are quite different. Except the person with allergies doesn't typically cause danger, damage or liability to others.

Only when enough people get fed up will anything change. I know you always like the last word on this subject so have at it. I made my opinion known. --173.170.xxx.xxx




ESA pig kicked off plane (by John... [MI]) Posted on: Nov 28, 2017 7:34 AM
Message:

Lisa: As I said, for most airlines, all someone with a severe animal allergy has to do is give the airline 48 hours notice. Then they will arrange that that flight not have pets on it. That's all that is required. No doctor's note. Just PROPER NOTICE.

ESAs need to provide documentation for most airlines.

So, again, this made-up scenario where it is so hard for people with allergies and so easy for ESAs just isn't accurate. It is literally the OPPOSITE of that.

The only people with those severe allergies that are having problems are those that say NOTHING to the airline beforehand and then announce that they have the allergy when they happen to sit down next to someone's pet or disability animal. THAT is when there is a problem -- because, again, they didn't give proper notice.

Again, just getting "fed up" and complaining isn't going to change anything. They aren't suddenly going to change the ESA rules for airlines because we all complained about it here. Real change will come if there is a crack-down on the "healthcare professionals" handing out these letters. Push back on the doctors and others that can write the letter is the only real solution.

Complaining about allergies and the airlines themselves isn't going to change anything. The problem is the people writing the letters to anyone and everyone that asks. That's all I'm saying.

- John...

--207.241.xxx.xxx




ESA pig kicked off plane (by BRAD 20,000 [IN]) Posted on: Dec 1, 2017 9:41 AM
Message:

Pig in a poke...er...plane.

BRAD --68.51.xx.xxx



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