Some of you have been very successful portraying yourselves as "the manager" which I've not been able to do. For one, I collect rent by money order or via deposit to my bank account which entails them knowing my name. Whereas I deliberately avoid any small talk with neighbors and tenants, invariably they exchange information and the areas where my properties are located are dense and close; everyone knows everyone and appears to try to get in each others business. I avoid small talk simply for this reason alone, do what I have to do and go. On occasion, I've had my wife and son assist me with painting at the rooming house, but we just did the work and didn't engage with the tenants. One of the tenants asked how many kids I had after seeing my son. (I have four). I told her and changed the subject. The folks in the neighborhood all know who I am even while I don't know all of them. There was someone who was looking to rent a room who told me they saw me at the place with my wife one day. And apparently, the neighbors and some of the tenants in my rooming house are socializing. That's not an entirely bad thing as this is a family neighborhood but it's a close one. Anything that occurs in that rooming house is known by the entire neighborhood. These are the same neighbors who had somehow gotten ahold of my full name even before I rented the first room in the place. This is after having bought the place using an LLC so I would have some anonymity.

My son has my same name and recently graduated high school. He was a top area track athlete, drew attention from several major Division 1 colleges and received a lot of notoriety in our local press and beyond. I was hoping the tenants didn't notice and I certainly didn't engage them about him. I was at the rooming house today when one of them mentioned reading about him. No doubt that everyone in the building and the neighborhood now knows that. I live in an adjoining town about 15 minutes away that I've never mentioned, but a couple of the articles on my son mentioned our town, so they probably know where I live as well.

No hiding for me. The only way I can have a manager is to hire one.

We live on site of our complex. It would be extremely difficult to be the manager. I can see its advantages, but it just isn't going to happen for us.

For me, it would be lying, and I stink at that. No poker face here! But, I also don't flaunt any status either. Wedding ring is a plain gold band, just like husbands, drive an older pickup with a bit of rust, not much of a glamour gal.

I have a total MOM personality, so am always encouraging my tenants, but, I have to be careful lest they think I'm a push-over. I strive for Loving-Drill Sargent, lol!

It's not impossible to manage rentals without being "the manager". I simply keep distance and don't pull punches. I'm firm and consistent. Keeping distance is very very important though as failure to do that not only clouds one's judgement but also can confuse the tenant. Also, I avoid doing certain things by hiring out certain things so I can truly manage and not work. I think it's possible to be both "the manager" and "the owner" but that depends on how your role is positioned with the tenants.

GKARL,

Truth in love? Ya know I'll tell you straight: those are excuses. You are fooling yourself and putting your family in danger.

You are also lying. The LLC owns it, not you.

You are no longer a small time LL. You are growing into a pro with a larger portfolio. Gotta start thinking that way.

You are dealing with some sketchy people. It's not just your residents, it's all those you showed, turned away, and those who hate rich people because "they got it by cheating poor people". You are putting your family in danger.

You really need to read Ruby Payne's book to understand the business you are in.

You MUST step up to the level of your business and protect your family and yourself by NOT bragging to people that you are a big time owner.

You are TELLING them you are the owner. Your account should have a business name. You can change the name on the account. We give our pay-at-the-bank residents a card with the account number on it. If they forget the card they give the teller our business name, not mine.

If someone asks your son's name while he's painting teach him to say his first name only. He CAN say he's the manager's son.

I'm sure your son is a great athlete but not everyone in town follows his sports career (until he goes pro!). I cannot tell you a single sports star in my town. He can have the same name as the manager.

On the other side, people are jealous and would love to take a rich kid down. A simple Tonya Harding wack to the leg to "bring him back down" - not better than the rest.

Your residents and applicants will be more cooperative AND tell you more if they see you as the manager. So you are hurting yourself but boosting your pride by being Mr Big Shot.

Residents love their manager but will argue with and sue an owner.

It's an adjustment to be professional but well worth it.

BRAD

We posted at the same time.

If you understand keeping a businesslike distance, you understand the need to not tell them everything.

Sure folks will place the owner label on you but that does not mean it's true.

And all LLs must learn: you do not have to answer every question.

Brad: I think you're reading way more into this than what's there and misreading several things. You should go back and reread my initial comments and please point out where I'm bragging to tenants. Please be specific about what I bragged to them about.

Pride and playing "Mr. Big Shot" doesn't have anything to do with this. Also, I've long experience in business and managing people and reading situations. Changing a name on a bank account doesn't make someone a business person. Manufacturing "managers" that don't exist doesn't do it either. Process is what makes a business work. Actually managing is what makes a business work. I can be "the manager" all day but if that's not clearly understood, it's for naught. I can be "an owner" with a firm understanding of that and have absolutely no problem in running a business.

I've got most of my homes in clusters for the most part.

I'm the manager.

To make it even more convincing, I now have a management company. People pay the management company directly or deposit funds into the management company's account.

I'd like to think my challenge is tougher than yours. I build a lot of my rentals. I have to deal with 50 or so people on every house and convince them that I am building them for an investor. I tell them this will a direct look in easy way. Some subs want to know who the investor is so they can sell to him! I tell them he's my customer! In fact, I'm so concerned about establishing this that I'm going to have this "owner" show up at a job site and berate me in front of the subs (then we'll grab lunch and laugh till we can't stop about it!!!)

When distant friends or acquaintances ask how many rentals do you have, I give them Lee's answer. Some days not enough, some days way too many!

To further muddy the waters and to also accomplish an asset protection strategy, one LLC holds every three houses. If someone somehow manages to crack the code, they'll be sad to find out, yes, I only own, three houses.

This strategy can be implemented. I was a late arriver. I was simply being honest with people when they asked if I was the owner. Not trying to brag, just trying to be honest. Now, I'm honest too, when I indicate to them that I am the property manager.

Literally, no one has asked me to work with them since I became the manager. Sometimes tougher questions will need to be discussed with the owner - and I'll get back to them (buys me a lot of time.)

With the mindset you start out at, you're right, you can't.

But don't you want to establish the greatest buffer you can for your family?

I am a fairly prominent person in my small town of 3,500 people. My parents and grandparents were landlords. I worked on thier units when I was growing up. WIfe's also from here with a similar background. We often get unsolicited calls asking if we have any units. It would be impossible to even try to play the "I'm just the manager" card and dishonest to insinuate that I have to run something by my boss (except the wife!) when someone asks for a decision.

I do not fear for my life, nor do I live in Fort Knox. If I felt that I had to carry a gun in the daily course of my business of landlording, I'd sell everything and move to cjo'h's homeland.

On the other hand, I don't antagonize my tenants. I don't get enmeshed in their lives, I never send them birthday or thank you cards. I stare in amazement when I read posts from landlords on this forum that get themselves wrapped up in their tenant's drama, arguing and fighting with them. I never chase rents. I hire our town's attorney if they become delinquent in the rent, which because of screening, they rarely do.

I can tell someone "no" the first time, without having to think it over and without feeling like I need to explain my rationale for do so or apologize. One can remain polite, but brief.

Practice saying "No' in front of the mirror sometime. Then "I'm too chicken to speak to you man to man so I'll invent a nonexistent owner that I need to run things by before I get back to you to tell you something you don't want to hear" Compare which one makes you feel more like a man (or a lady).

Different strokes for different folks.

#22.. I would love to play the "investor" and stop in to chew on you awhile. GREAT IDEA. You could stop at a few PITA and get chewed in front of them as well.

OK GKarl I think I remember you describing the situation before...they are all related to each other and if one group gets evicted all the rest are angry at you?

I became "the manager" when my wife was pregnant with our twins. I was evicting a very recalcitrant tenant who warned me, "you better watch my back and my family."

Nuff said. All the shtick about being the owner was done: 100% gone. I immediately printed up business cards with the LL's name and my FIRST NAME ONLY. Underneath my name is "Leasing Specialist".

Business acount at the bank. Tenants bring money orders payable to "ABC Rentals."

Tenants know me by my first name only. None have asked the last name.

GKARL, this isn't a post to beat up on you. Please, even if you think Brad has way overstepped the line and isn't "getting" you or your circumstance...the bottom line is and always will be your family is at risk. People are crazy these days and act out because we don't hold anyone responsible for anything. Everyone has a "condition" a "disability" or something else to point the finger at. Even confessed murderers get 25 years in jail and dozens of appeals....probably a better life materially than many of your tenants. That won't be a deterrent if they decide it's time to settle a score with someone who they think represents "the man" and/or why they've failed in life.

Or even drugs...one pissed off tenant high on something and you could have an injured or dead kid. Think on that, then decide if you still want to be the owner. I know that's not what you want: that question was rhetorical, but once you have that answer...no other answers or questions matter. I'm being blunt because I'd rather have you mad at me than be the next news story we see posted about "dead/injured land lord."

Ken, the fact that I tell tenants and applicants that I'm the manager doesn't change the fact that I'm also the owner (perhaps indirectly via LLC).

The fact that I tell the building dept and judge that I'm owner doesn't change the fact that I'm also manager.

Ken,

How do meet with code enforcement and get permits? My contractors pull their own permits and/or I go to code enforcement. I am a member of my LLC, they don't care as long as I represent the owner of record which is the LLC.

How do you stand in front of a judge for code violations? I don't. I've never been cited for a code violation. I keep my properties up and evict tenants who fail to keep them up. But if I did go before a judge, MO law says I must have an attorney. He'd tell me what to say, and my guess is he'd say tell him your first and last name and that you are a member of the LLC, which owns the property.

How do you deal with neighbors when they say they want to sell there house? "I'll let the investors know you're interested in Selling."

How do you deal with realtors? First and last name basis as a member of ABC Rentals, LLC. They know what that means. When we tour a property, I specifically instruct them to let me do the talking. Their job is to unlock the door and answer my questions. They do not represent the tenant. They are acting as a dual agent for Buyer and Seller and are therefore in my employment. If they violate my instructions they risk losing their license.

How do you stand in front of your investment group? With both feet on the ground. One foot gets tiring too quickly. (grins)... Same deal. My name is S i d...I'm a member of ABC Rentals, LLC. They know what that means.

Now my turn to task a question...do you know MY real first name? I'll give you a hint...it's not Sid. That's a nickname I've had since middle school. My wife, friends, pastor, and boss all call me Sid. On legal documents, I use my legal name. It's not a big deal. These days you get to pick just about everything pertaining to you, so why not pick your name,/title? (grins)

Btw, I know lots of folks hate it when I bring up Bible stuff, but this attitude of "manager, not the owner" is 100% consistent with Christian theology. "The Earth is the Lord's and the fullness thereof." God owns it all. I'm just a steward/asset manager. This makes the statement, "I'm the manager" true in the deepest MORAL sense. And since the law recognizes that LLCs can own things, it's also LEGALLY true. There are no lies or twinging conscience moments for me. Everything I say is 100% true in every sense I can imagine it. If a tenant doesn't believe in God and denies the existence of LLCs and think that makes me a liar...well, I can't do anything about their misunderstanding. These are the same people who deny that they owe rent each month (wink), so I don't give their opinions about me a lot of credit.

You can also set up two companies,which can be confusing, but effective.

One is the INVESTMENT GROUP, LLC and the other is the MANAGEMENT GROUP, LLC. So, your contact info, biz shirt, truck advertising, etc can all be under the PROPERTY MANAGEMENT name. You pull up in the PROPERTY MANAGEMENT truck with your shirt on, and you are the MANAGER.

Our bank accounts are under the company name.

You have to always think that somebody else is always listening to whatever you say. You have to see yourself through their eyes. You have to take measures to protect yourself. You have to practice saying, "I need to discuss with the owner." Act the part of a property manager ALWAYS. You can always call back and tell them the owner said no.

Trust me. My husband and I have gone through a lot as Managers. There is no way on top of everything we have gone through, that we would EVER say we were the owners. NO FRIGGIN WAY.

I'm practically begging you, GKARL. Please find a way to change your practices.

You can begin by changing the bank account name. Then just make small changes to pull your name away from the biz. People would have to dig harder and harder not to find out what your main role is. It is not worth you working SO D@mn hard to have some hot headed loser take everything away from you in an instant.

PS. You don't have to brag outright to be bragging. Any quick easy expensive purchase made after a tenant request(washer and dryer), the fact that you can afford a boarding house, not to mention if you drive a fancy car as the "owner" makes you more wealthy than probably 90% of the town- in their eyes.

You can't set yourself up as a property management company in NC without a broker's license. You can't manage someone else's property without a broker's license.

All we want is to to avoid problems and protect our family, we do not cause anyone any problem by saying we are property managers.

WMH, in our state it is okay to set up a management company where you are managing your own property. If tenants even know the law, they can assume you are a broker.

In GKARLs instance, it may be overkill to set up two companies. Even just changing to the manager mindset and changing the bank account name are two huge steps.

>>>>Practice saying "No' in front of the mirror sometime. Then "I'm too chicken to speak to you man to man so I'll invent a nonexistent owner that I need to run things by before I get back to you to tell you something you don't want to hear" Compare which one makes you feel more like a man (or a lady).<<<<<<<

This quote reflects my feeling on the matter. I don't operate from a position or spirit of fear ever. It's not a matter of manly ego, but I'm simply not going to operate from that position. If I have to fear for my life and health, then I'm in the wrong business. Actually, it's fear that causes all sorts of irrational behavior in this world. For some reason as I write this, I'm thinking of Philando Castile, the gentlemen who was killed by the cop in Milwaukee mainly because of fear as he reached for his ID or the lady who was killed by a cop a few weeks back because she called them about an assault and slapped the back the police car to get their attention. I don't wish to get political, but the point is that fear can be the cause of many problems and irrational responses. Yes LL's get killed and assaulted occasionally, but it's more likely we'll die from a car accident.

Yes, I realize people can be problematic and I certainly believe in taking reasonable precautions, but not everyone is looking for retribution against a LL. I have absolutely no problem telling tenants no and applying my rules consistently. I don't make it personal, but keep it very businesslike. To me, it's all about how you position it beginning with the screening and training of the tenant. I respect them and demand that in return.

GKARL,

It's fantastic you don't run from a position of fear. No one wants to do that. But we also cannot run our business from a position of absolute comfort. Cautious is the word.

We can twist this to be depicted as lying- this OWNER/MANAGER debate. It depends how you want it to be, really.

Have you ever encountered a truly irate tenant? One who cannot be calmed by your words, who is just so angry at their own life, circumstances, that they need a scapegoat for their problems? That scapegoat will be you. They think you are privileged, entitled because of the good careful choices that you made and without them knowing the truth in it's entirety, you find yourself in a dangerous situation. You might not live through it. Not exaggerating.

You appear to have a great thing going for you. Forgive me for suggesting you should protect yourself by saying you are the manager. But you are. Unless you tell them you are the owner, you are the manager. Uncomfortable request? " Let me check. I'll get back to you."

This is no longer the same world that we may have been lucky enough to witness as young kids- where handshakes meant a promise. How I wish it could be that way again.

Sure we used to tell the tenants we were the owners. Our lives changed for the better when we realized the bad feelings this creates. It's like telling somebody who's never gone on vacation- never could afford it or take time off-that you went on one or that you go every year. How does it feel?

They can't relate to you. You've gone from being lumped into the group of fellow strugglers to the group of rich, greedy property owner. No matter how generous, how graceful, how honest you are. You've created your own ugly grey boundary.

I consider this white "lie" about as harmless as the Easter Bunny.

ALL IN LOVE,

which is the sentiment of all the responses to your post have been-

Amy

Amy,

I appreciate your passion and the space you're coming from as well. To be honest, I have said on occasion "let me think about it and get back to you" because that's what I actually needed to do. There are some things I can deal with on the spot and some requests I need to mull over. And yes, I've dealt with irate tenants previously having done so as recently as a couple of days ago. I don't tend to get the rich owner thing though as I don't project it. I don't have fancy cars nor am I a fashion plate.

Actually, it's not a lie that you're a manager. I'm a manager as well as this thing isn't going to function properly if I don't manage. I'm all about management structure and effectiveness. I just happen to believe that the fact that if I'm known as the owner doesn't detract from that.

As I may have mentioned, I'm a CPA full time and have spent about 35 years running my own small firm. I can't imagine hiding the fact that I own my firm for fear of clients (some of them make me want to run though..LOL). Obviously a different business but perhaps illustrative of my mindset. One of the most difficult things I've had to grapple with is employees. As a small business, you often don't have the management infrastructure in place like major employers do thus it becomes challenging to manage employees particularly when you cross the line and get too close. The same applies to clients. Get too close and some don't think they should pay fees. Having made those mistakes, I have ways of ensuring that I don't inadvertently cross the line and I maintain control. The worst thing that can happen with an employee is for them to bring their own work system rather than learn and execute on the one that's in place. I'm not going to let an employee or contractor define their job. It's my job as a manager to define it and let them know if they're meeting the mark. The key I've found is defining the relationship and setting expectations.

I have absolutely no expectation that the tenants will relate to me at all. I keep my distance but I do "ride herd". I also try to operate as a manager in fact as that makes a difference how I'm perceived. So for the most part, the tenants will not see me cleaning, cutting grass or even painting anymore. For one, I don't have the time and my time is better spent on other stuff. I try to position myself in one place and them in another.

perhaps part of this is the areas we live and work in

Everyone knows the mayor's real name and where he lives. Everyone knows the police's real names and can look up where they live. School board members, city council. Everyone can look up the judges, the district attorneys, etc. If you've ever gone to a controversial meeting, zoning board members should all hide from the public !! Point being, these folks run into unhappy people more often that I do and they don't "hide".

I do not "brag". My tenants see me that I work and work hard. they see me get dirty. as I get older they see me struggling to toss stuff up into the truck or lift things out. they aren't resentful because I do not in any way ever act superior to anyone.

I can't think of an instance where I recall a tenant ever refer to me as "owner" or "manager" ... they all say "the landlord".

GKARL,

I'm not meaning to put you down. Your comments are common among LLs and posted here frequently. I write the same stuff over and over about LLs setting their pride aside to protect their families.

I mean to encourage you, to help you take your business to the next level of professionalism and protection. I hope you've seen that in all my replies to your other posts. I care about you enough to try and help.

You are ignoring a basic principle of LLing:

Renters believe LLs are rich. Every LL knows this. This creates jealousy which leads to hate. Dealing with low income applicants increases the risk.

Here's a quick self test:

If an angry/drunk/high resident/evictee/contractor were to harm your family, (heaven forbid!) would any of the above excuses hold water?

Please! Protect your family! and read Ruby Payne so this makes sense.

BRAD

I asked my police chief "How do I convince LLs to not give out personal info such as home address?"

His reply in shock "Why in the WORLD would they need to be convinced?? Isn't it obvious?! They should already know this!"

BRAD

I'm not afraid of anyone, least of all a wacked-out tenant or contractor. It's interesting how when we talk about mitigating risk some folks automatically associate that with fear. Nope. Just mitigating risk. I don't have to fear something to realize that I don't want to experience it.

Debt = risk. I don't fear debt. I do mitigate the risk of foreclosure and bankruptcy by not using it.

Owner = risk. I don't fear tenants, contractors or lawyers. I do mitigate the risk of losing everything by not painting a big target on my butt.

whats ruby payne a book

"A framework for understanding poverty" is the book by Ruby Payne.

For some of us it's baby steps. I used to have a rent drop mailbox on my house. All My tenants knew where I lived.

Then I had kind of a nut job apply. (We didn't even get to the rent drops portion of our relationship as he was not a tenant)

He lied about his employer, couldn't prove income. Even though I had told him I would call him if he was approved, he called me five or six times in a row. Finally I answered and told him I couldn't verify his employment. Thanked him and hung up.

2-3 hours later he's knocking on my door! To this day I don't know where he got my address, I guess he could've looked it up on the county but it was done pretty quickly if he did. (This was pre smart phone)

He was irate! Kept arguing with me, kept getting louder, totally kept my cool but that freaked me out.

After that, no more rent going to my home or tenants knowing where I live.

I moved in with my SO about six years ago. Since I am not on the title to this house, it is very hard to know where I live now. I admit, I do like it!

I still wrap my head around the manager thing. I'm starting to realize that it really isn't that difficult, my SO bought rentals in the last few years and literally I am the manager for his property.

My longer-term tenants still know that I'm the owner, but they also know that I am the "worker". Even if I'm just supervising, *I* am the one standing next to the guys in the hundred degree heat, or the 7° cold.

In general, an LLC owns the property. However, a single member LLC is considered a sole proprietorship which is a disregarded entity by the IRS. The courts in only 3 states offer single member LLC's the same protection as multi-member LLC's regarding asset protection from lawsuits. The majority of states do not recognize them as a separate entity and consider the actual owner the individual member with no personal protection against liability law suits.

I don't think this particular discussion is about lawsuits, however. I think it's about safety.

A month or so ago my downstairs tenant texted me that there was a strange man wandering around the yard and came up and peeked in her sliders. Her dog chased him away. We later found a note on the fence that someone was looking for a place. I texted and asked, "Were you here in the yard earlier?"

He said yes, and that he had found out about our place from a contractor (I don't even know which one) that he randomly met at a local restaurant.