A while ago I tried to post an off topic subject that I thought might be an interest to LL's esp to northeast and upper mid west where is is rampart (however it has spread to almost every state) about Ticks and the diseases they carry.

The black footed tick is so tiny that one can easily fit on the "D" of a dime so chances are YOU won't see it on your body. ,Also it they can crawl into an area that you can't see very well and only 50% will produce the bull's-eye rash that many doctors still think they have to see in Lyme cases.

On top of that there are still doctors who think that they have to wait for the test to come back to show you have lyme. (That test will take days and probably will come back negative since you haven't made antibodies to the spirochete that causes Lyme and that are going to show in the test). By then you're probably cooked. You may have chronic Lyme something that may greatly affect you for the rest of your life.

Oh by the way they don't tell you that the tests are probably only about 65% accurate on top of it. If you don't treat for Lyme in the first 36 to 48 hours is likely to become chronic Lyme. The deer tick that carries Lyme can carry about 12 other diseases.

Most people when they hear the word tick think about wood ticks which are disgusting but don't carry nearly the amount of diseases that the Blackfooted deer tick does. That tick can carry as many as 12 different diseases.

Another big problem is that even doctors who are aware of Lyme very often never check for the co-infections to name some, like anaplasmosis, ehrichosis, babesia,and even powassan Which is not common yet but there is fear that it could start to spread rapidly and there is no treatment for it and it can be fatal.

You can look up the diseases that the black footed tick carry besides these. The lone star tick can carry a disease that makes many people not able to eat red meat after they been infected.

Anyway I tried a few times to post some very interesting information about tick diseases and what you should, and could do if your infected or for prevention. I use cut and paste of two very good articles from a major national tick disease organization that as well recognize along doctors who treat tick diseases and another one from the Michigan health department.

I pointed out that many landlords do some or all of their own mowing and landscaping. Even if it's just their own property that they live at it could really profoundly affect your life, and for the rest of your life. As someone who has contracted chronic Lyme I can tell you you don't want to get this.

There are at least two sides to every story. I am a family practice doc in Maine, in practice for more than 20 years. For reasons unknown to me, there is more quackery involved by "experts" in the field of Lyme disease than any other disease. Most of what they preach, that extensive IV antibiotics are needed for weeks, or months, or years, is just plain bunk. Disproven 100%. The quacks even lobbied the legislature to force the board of licensure in medicine here not to discipline docs for practicing quackery when it comes to Lyme disease.

Well I have to say my infectious disease specialist disagrees with you.

I'm sorry. really no offense, but a family practice doctor is hardly an expert in this field, unless you have taken further formal concentrated study in this area.

My own family doctor because of so much infections locally took time to do extra study in this area took 2 weeks off from his practice and has taken continuing Ed seminars in this area and is well respected among his peers in this MD dense area. I don't think any of them regard him as a quack.BTW I know that both of these practitioners a few years ago pretty much felt the same as you, however our infectious rate pushed them into a study of information, studies and learning more about tick diseases. Perhaps its not as dense in your part of Me.

In this area of very high tick infections we still have many MD's that DO try to tell pts that they have to have the bulls eye rash (however that it changing) Also we still have a lot of Docs that want to "wait for the test to come back" However that too has gotten a bit less.

Just those thing alone have allowed a lot of people to get chronic Lyme. Who are the quacks here? A lot of people will suffer for maybe the rest of their lives because of ignorance.

Yes there is a lot of treatments that are being tried.Some are not based on the crucible of scientific methodology and never will be.

I do know there is a lot of egos involved, a lot of frustration with pts upset with some MD's that think chronic Lyme can be treated with a few days of doxycycline.and even claiming if that didn't work they don't have Lyme or any of the co infections. And those MD's are reacting to this.

There are now thousands of MD's in ILADS that all can't be considered quacks.

BTW I have advanced degrees in biochemistry and capable of reading scientific papers in Pub Med and other outlets.

I had a regular tick on me last year that looked like pictures of the lime disease tick. Went to my Dr. within 24 hours and he gave me doxycycline. I took it for a week and then it started to aggravate my stitches from recent hernia surgery so I stopped taking it. Six weeks later I got an ELISA test and it was negative so I was lucky.

My aunt had it and it took a long time for her to lose her symptoms. She had to go up into CT to get good treatment.

Just to clarify this for anyone that might be interested, I think he means the "blacklegged" tick? That is what the Deer Tick is also commonly known as.

I did a google search on "Black footed tick" because I hadn't heard of it. I found only a handful of matches calling it that. Pretty much everyone calls it the "Blacklegged" tick or, more commonly, just the "deer tick."

- John...

AllyM: The recommendation from the American Infectious Disease organization for potential Lyme with no symptoms, like you had, is actually just a single dosage of doxycycline. (The international Lyme people recommend doing it for 20 days -- but most are saying that is really overkill when you are symptom free.)

- John...

John

Thats correct,seems like I used what many here are calling them, yes its the blacklegged tick,Ixodes scapularis.

And yes IF you can get the doxy within the window of 36 and maybe 48 hours you have a very good chance of knocking it out. However many people don't know when the tick was first attached so it may be beyond that window. The 20-30 day then MAY stop chronic Lyme but apparently not in everyone. When you consider what is at stake its hard to say what is over kill.

Hence the "not waiting for the Western Blot blood test to come back, which may not show anything as not enough time to form antibodies and the fact its probably only 65-75 % reliable even later.

There is a good documentary called "Under our skin/s". Maybe

you can find it. It is about our area. Shows some pretty terrible cases of Lyme and how prevalent it is here.

Sorry JR/ME but I now have a deep-seated fear of some "accepted practices" in medicine. Most doctors don't do much learning after med school but information changes daily!

For 20 years most doctors preached the FDA's high-carb low-fat diet that has CAUSED the obesity / diabetes epidemic. Many STILL do. If I hadn't completely disregarded my doctor's recommendations and searched for "quack cures" on the internet, I would be on the road to losing my feet or my eyes. That was in 2012. And now what is happening? Even some doctors are realizing that a Ketogenic Diet (high fat, low carb, moderate protein) is better for us all - but especially for diabetics.

And when I went to my doctor about situational anxiety, they wanted me to take an anti-depressant instead. I'm not depressed, I'm occasionally over-anxious about things. Maybe about losing my feet or my eyes. But to avoid "addiction" to anxiety drugs (having to take them every day - which I don't) they wanted me to take an anti-depressant ... every day. What??

And when I had a kidney infection, they prescribed CIPRO, which is a terrible drug, especially for a diabetic. I had to refuse and beg for another. Thus labeling me as non-compliant.

And when my blood serum cholesterol came back high, they wanted me on statins, despite the lack of ANY evidence that they prevent a first heart attack, or have ANY scientific evidence about their effect on women because they were never tested on women. And despite growing evidence that artificially lowering cholesterol can actually be more damaging than not. I demanded an NMR test instead and it came back that my cholesterol particles are large and fluffy - perfectly fine. And my HDL is so freakishly high it drives up my total number, which then means nothing...except that a High HDL actually LOWERS my chance of a heart attack.

I could go on but that's enough.

No offense taken, I view this forum as a bunch of friends sitting around a table.

The Infectious Diseases Society of America produces the definitive guidelines for treatment of infectious diseases in the US. Their guidelines clearly state that the treatment duration for Lyme disease ranges from 1 dose for prevention after a potential tick bite to 28 days for those with long standing disease and neurological symptoms. Very few need IV antibiotics.

Any doctor, or health care provider, who strays significantly from these recommendations is practicing anti-science whichcraft. Every bonafide study ever done shows that treatment for longer than 28 days is not helpful. It may also be harmful.

So, my friends, be careful of any "expert" who claims to know more about a subject than the collective wisdom of hundreds or thousands of doctors in clinical practice every day. (Kinda like this forum in the landlording world) Take with a healthy skepticism their claims of being the know it all. Ask for the studies they rely upon to reach their conclusions, and ask why they do not think that the well-published guidelines should not be followed in your case.

Indubitiobly, you will get a a humida humida response of "if you don't believe me you are ignorant" or some variation of this non-response.

To all a good day.

Isn't standard of care set by the government? Handed down to doctors to follow? Could there possibly be any profit motives there? Hmmm

I have a good and dear friend... who's husband got a tick bite, with the tick rash. I no longer recall what his antibiotic treatment or length was. Now is that he is sick weekly. He was seemingly healthy prior to the tick bite. He no longer tests positive for Lyme, but still has it.

I think medicine is great if you are in an accident or have a sudden onset infection. Medical treatment will save your life.

If I am diagnosed with a chronic disease, I am going to take my biochemistry background and knowledge and figure out how to heal myself.

We supposedly have great healthcare knowledge and money and access in this country?

Well... look around you. Look at all the fat Americans. Are they healthy? No. Our food is crap. Doctors give out prescriptions readily. Are we healthier? No. Is there a profit motive in "health" care? Yes. Are there big egos involved as well? Are there well-meaning and intelligent people involved as well who are simply wrong? Health is complicated as we are all different. What works for one person may not be the answer for another.

We have thrown out how many millions of dollars in the "war against cancer". Still, the best thing to happen in cancer is to get an early diagnosis before the cancer has spread.

Again, sorry, JR, but look at the recommendations of the American Diabetes Association. Every cover of their magazine features cake. They STILL insist that the food pyramid diet should be followed. They still insist that lowering the HbA1c of an older person is not necessary. They still insist on many harmful practices - I just pulled this from their web site two seconds ago: "For many people, having about 45 to 60 grams (of carbohydrates) at meals is about right."

PER MEAL! My blood sugar would be THROUGH THE ROOF at all times. I strive to stay under 30 carbs PER DAY and even a SMALL amount of grain carbs or white carbs will send my BS skyrocketing. And for hours and hours after I eat them...all the while "scratching" away at my veins and arteries, doing damage to my extremities and my heart, etc.

So what I am saying is that the paternal "doctor knows best" attitude in medicine is slowly being overturned by people who have shared their stories of healing or controlling one's own health sometimes by simply defying their doctor's recommendations.

The "American Diabetes Association" is a private, for-profit entity looking to make money. They sell a magazine -- and, to do that, they put cake on the front. If you look at their "members", it is primarily their staff and board.

That isn't the same thing AT ALL as something like the Infectious Diseases Society of America that JR mentioned. They have nothing to sell anyone. And if you look at their members, you'll see it is primarily physicians and scientists.

To compare the two and say "I don't listen to the IDSA because the ADA has cake on their magazine" is ridiculous.

- John...

Hollis,.

Thank you for sharing. If you have educated one, you have probably educated many.

I met a woman who was selling some supplements that I wanted for my son. After we got to know each other she shared that her entire family had Lyme. Apparently, either her or her husband had Lyme and gave it to the other. She had two children before she found out and they also tested positive. So, keep in mind that even if YOU don't set foot in the woods, there is a risk from SO's who have because Lyme is also an STD.

Okay John how about the CDC? Same bad recommendations.

WMH, yes my doc also wants my cholesterol lowered w statins. (10 pts high per their numbers)

I clearly and in no uncertain terms told her I am not taking anything that I have to have my liver checked every 3 months!!

Also, she now wants to see me every 3 months. I told her I have good friends that I don't see every 3 months.

WMH: What do you mean "same bad recommendations"? Are you saying that the CDC has a magazine with cake on it for treating diabetes?

Whatever. I think you're missing the point that JR was making -- which is that, in general, science and the ongoing history of many doctors over time makes the most sense for treating disease.

- John...

Interesting discussion about Lyme. Personally, several members of my family have had it. My brother was an very early case in the 1980's, and he was sick for a long time (at least a year) before a new, improved, test pinpointed Lyme. But if I recall correctly, he only had to take oral anti-biotics for 30-60 days, and recovered completely.

My FIL's Lyme was actually a blessing in disguise - while getting tested for it when he showed symptoms of Lyme, his blood work alerted his doc to very early chronic lymphatic leukemia (CLL). Antibiotics took care of the Lyme, and the doc knew what to watch for with the CLL, so there were no surprises - my FIL lived a lot longer than most CLL patients because the docs knew what they were dealing with.

My hubby, one kid, and I (twice)have all had Lyme - but were fortunate enough to find either the tick (poppy seed with legs!) that had signs of having a blood meal a couple of weeks before feeling the flu-like symptoms (always save the tick by taping it onto a piece of paper and dating the paper); or an actual bull's-eye rash. Antibiotics took care of us.

Well I have Lyme and so do 2 family members and a lot of acquaintances also. The problem with Lyme is we were treated and THOUGHT we were done with it,..but months and even years go by and we have the same symptoms. People say they HAD Lyme. However it may be more accurate to say you HAVE Lyme in remission.

I just know we were very healthy and that changed very quickly after, in our cases recovering from the Lyme fever.

There are studies that talk about Lyme spirochetes drill into cells and then form a biofilm which then protects it from antibiotics and your immune system.

That's why if you treat it within days, before the biofilm,

is in place, you CAN knock it out. After that you may suppress it until it decides to rear its ugly head and you become in essence re infected.

BTW papers about Lyme? her are 700 papers and articles.

Arguments from both sides

youtube.com/watch?v=PMB0Tp_wE5A

youtube.com/watch?v=DPa36qTnBgQ

Why Lyme and other tick diseases are complicated in Dx and treatment.

Owners of dogs should know the nifty tool to remove ticks with. Slide it under the tick, then turn it. The ticks' legs get unhooked (turn it either way, but on the axis of the tick). After a walk outside, under trees, you might very well get them, too). With bad health risks!

OK, so now I need the share the time -honored Southern California way of removing a tick.

Take a match, light it, blow it out and touch the hot ember to the body of the tick. The tick will back out. Squash the tick once it is fully out. The trick is to touch only the tick, and not your little sister. My older brother taught me that trick in 1965 -- and he was a BOY SCOUT.

RathrumGal: I grew up with that knowledge too -- and learned it in Boy Scouts (and even taught it to other Scouts as a Scoutmaster years ago) -- but they have stopped recommending that. It turns out that too many of the ticks would just DIG IN DEEPER when exposed to the heat.

It is no longer recommended. :)

- John...