Service dog (by Dave [PA]) Sep 27, 2016 9:07 AM
Service dog (by Vee [OH]) Sep 27, 2016 10:25 AM
Service dog (by Alan [C]) Sep 27, 2016 10:52 AM
Service dog (by TenantWhisperer [MA]) Sep 27, 2016 11:00 AM
Service dog (by Beverly [KY]) Sep 27, 2016 11:30 AM
Service dog (by Barb [MO]) Sep 27, 2016 11:56 AM
Service dog (by Beverly [KY]) Sep 27, 2016 12:23 PM
Service dog (by George [NJ]) Sep 27, 2016 12:32 PM
Service dog (by LoriC [CO]) Sep 27, 2016 1:22 PM
Service dog (by Amy [MO]) Sep 27, 2016 1:40 PM
Service dog (by LisaFL [FL]) Sep 27, 2016 2:08 PM
Service dog (by Judi [CA]) Sep 27, 2016 2:10 PM
Service dog (by Barb [MO]) Sep 27, 2016 3:06 PM
Service dog (by LL in [IN]) Sep 27, 2016 4:15 PM
Service dog (by Hippd [KY]) Sep 27, 2016 5:49 PM
Service dog (by Dave [PA]) Sep 28, 2016 3:53 AM
Service dog (by J [FL]) Sep 28, 2016 5:19 AM
Service dog (by LisaFL [FL]) Sep 28, 2016 6:07 AM
Service dog (by Beverly [KY]) Sep 28, 2016 3:35 PM
Service dog (by Ray-N-Pa [PA]) Sep 28, 2016 4:43 PM
Service dog (by Gary [OK]) Sep 28, 2016 5:40 PM
Service dog (by Beverly [KY]) Sep 28, 2016 6:12 PM
Service dog (by J [FL]) Sep 29, 2016 4:23 AM
Service dog (by Beverly [KY]) Sep 29, 2016 7:09 AM
Service dog (by J [FL]) Sep 29, 2016 7:32 AM
Service dog (by Beverly [KY]) Sep 29, 2016 7:57 AM
Service dog (by J [FL]) Sep 29, 2016 8:09 AM
Service dog (by Emily [TX]) Sep 29, 2016 8:56 AM
Service dog (by LL in [IN]) Sep 29, 2016 1:01 PM
Service dog (by Beverly [KY]) Sep 30, 2016 10:14 AM
Service dog (by mike [CA]) Oct 5, 2016 8:44 AM
Service dog (by John... [MI]) Oct 5, 2016 9:07 AM
Service dog (by mlynv [FL]) Oct 22, 2016 1:45 PM
Service dog (by Dave [PA]) Posted on: Sep 27, 2016 9:07 AM Message:
What is the definition of a service dog ?
I have a "no pet " policy, but I recently had a girl come to look at a apartment that I had listed on CL. She told me she had a service dog that a doctor recommended she get to help her with depression. She got the German Shepard from the spca. ( no training of any kind )
She told one of my other tenants that I could not deny her of the apartment because of the dog. Is this true ?
I thought a service dog had to be professionally Trained ?
Thanks. --71.58.xxx.xxx |
Service dog (by Vee [OH]) Posted on: Sep 27, 2016 10:25 AM Message:
Lots to read about here, but first be sure what the claim is - you should have no problem asking for photo vet records and then the correct documentation from the doctor. Try to find your county fair housing office to get more details, they may have a class, for a year there is a group in my area but the class gets cancelled the night of the meeting and there is no explanation why - yet, at this time it is just a name with a payroll. --76.188.xxx.xxx |
Service dog (by Alan [C]) Posted on: Sep 27, 2016 10:52 AM Message:
Be aware: All sorts of scam Service Animal Certificates on the Internet! --47.142.xxx.xxx |
Service dog (by TenantWhisperer [MA]) Posted on: Sep 27, 2016 11:00 AM Message:
Get...this...get...that...and then reject her for a different reason. Once your other tenants learn this scam from this applicant, you nice rental will turn into a kennel. Next!
--66.30.xx.xx |
Service dog (by Beverly [KY]) Posted on: Sep 27, 2016 11:30 AM Message:
Our REIA this month just had a pre-meeting about that with an attorney as the speaker. Don't know if this is in every state but tenant can have Emotional Support Animal(s) They are not pets and can't be treated as such. They can have as many as they want and can be anything (dogs, cats, lizards, monkeys, etc.) and any breed. They don't have to have any training and can go on the internet to get a certificate. So these "scam Service Animal Certificates" are legitimate. Even if you don't allow pets you have to allow these animals. You can not charge extra or any fees. There are agencies (Fair Housing?) calling now and asking questions to see if they can get you to say the wrong thing. I think there is a $500 fine. These Emotional Support Animals are different than Service Animals. Service Animals are trained and are for specific things, like for blind or to detect a seizure coming on. The animal wears a tag stating it is a Service Animal. These Emotional Support Animals can be anything and are not trained. It can be a Pit Bull or mangy cat. (Please no rotten tomatoes for Pit Bull or mangy cat lovers.) So now all our tenants have to do is say the pet they have is an Emotional Support Animal and go on the internet and get a certificate. It is all legitimate. --216.24.xx.x |
Service dog (by Barb [MO]) Posted on: Sep 27, 2016 11:56 AM Message:
A Service Dog and an Emotional Support Animal are radically different critters. Please understand, a Service Dog DOES NOT have to wear anything stating it is a Service Dog, but it usually does to make life easier for the handler/partner.
John in MI and I are probably the resident experts on SDs and ESAs. I'm not entirely sure why John is, but I actually am partnered with a SD now, so I have my reasons.
Do a search on the forums for our names and Service Dogs or Emotional Support Animals and you'll find a lot.
The short version is:
Under the ADA, a Service Dog must be trained to perform a specific task to mitigate a disability. You are only allowed to ask two questions:
1) Is the dog necessary to assist with (or mitigate) a disability? (Note this is a yes/no question)
2) What task or tasks has the dog been trained to perform? Generally, there are at least three, but in some cases there are fewer.
You can view some of the accepted standards at www.assistancedogsinternational.org/standards/public-access-test/ and www.assistancedogsinternational.org/
By comparison, an emotional support animal doesn't require any training. Any medical or licensed mental health provider can recommend one.
Based on my understanding of the law, I feel comfortable asking for documentation from the provider. By documentation, I mean that I want a letter, on practice letterhead, including the name of the provider, address, phone/fax number and license number. I want the letter to state that tenant is under the care of the provider and that the ESA is recommended under the treatment plan they have designed. Note that I'm not asking for a diagnosis under the DSM IV, that comes under privacy laws. If they get that from a online source, I'll have to deal with it. On the other hand, I have a rather low pet fee, so I don't get a lot of push back. When I get someone who complains about my pet fee, I tell them what my daughter pays and they instantly stop complaining.
--131.151.xx.xx |
Service dog (by Beverly [KY]) Posted on: Sep 27, 2016 12:23 PM Message:
Barb, not saying a Service Dog has to wear a sign, but like you say usually does. According to this attorney the person with an Emotional Support Animal can submit one of these certificates from online and you have to accept. --216.24.xx.x |
Service dog (by George [NJ]) Posted on: Sep 27, 2016 12:32 PM Message:
Does anyone know weather you can demand insurance to cover such animal? Or is that considered an "extra fee" (witch I don't think it is). Any aggressive breed is a liability, why should being a LL now make us vulnerable for such a service/support animal? --76.1.xxx.xx |
Service dog (by LoriC [CO]) Posted on: Sep 27, 2016 1:22 PM Message:
I won't deal with this nonsense. Screen X6 and find something else to disqualify. I you dig hard enough you will usually find something. --65.114.xxx.xxx |
Service dog (by Amy [MO]) Posted on: Sep 27, 2016 1:40 PM Message:
Not particularly fond of the fact that her mouth already ran off in front of another one of your tenants. Sounds like trouble already. I would steer clear. --65.31.xxx.x |
Service dog (by LisaFL [FL]) Posted on: Sep 27, 2016 2:08 PM Message:
I second what Amy said. That was my first thought- entitlement attitudes I can definitely do without. Find another reason to deny. The girl is a loser tenant. --173.170.xxx.xxx |
Service dog (by Judi [CA]) Posted on: Sep 27, 2016 2:10 PM Message:
Another vote for identifying another reason to disqualify. I took in an 'emotional support cat'...both the cat and I suffered; the tenant was unable or unwilling to adequately care for the animal which destroyed screens trying to get out, and the carpet/underpadding had to be completely replaced. Ultimately, when I gave her notice to move, the cat got put on Craigslist for free and who knows who took the poor thing. It was heartbreaking. --47.32.xxx.xxx |
Service dog (by Barb [MO]) Posted on: Sep 27, 2016 3:06 PM Message:
Yep - find another reason to deny. She doesn't actually know what she even has. --131.151.xx.xx |
Service dog (by LL in [IN]) Posted on: Sep 27, 2016 4:15 PM Message:
She does not have a service dog. She has an emotional support dog IF she has a note from any sort of medical provider prescribing one.
Beverly sums it up well. Does she pass your screening in all other ways? I'd be very concerned about her telling another tenant that her animal cannot be denied. If not, move on. --68.39.xxx.xxx |
Service dog (by Hippd [KY]) Posted on: Sep 27, 2016 5:49 PM Message:
Why my criteria is set so high. She would be declined for sure on something else without having to mention the dog thing. This whole service animal thing is ludicrous. With that being said what would happen if a tenant got a service dog after they moved in? What to do then? --74.132.xxx.xxx |
Service dog (by Dave [PA]) Posted on: Sep 28, 2016 3:53 AM Message:
Thanks everyone!
The girl has bad credit. She told me that, so I didn't even run a credit check on her. Told her that was the reason. --71.58.xxx.xxx |
Service dog (by J [FL]) Posted on: Sep 28, 2016 5:19 AM Message:
Dave, if she actually paid an app fee and filled out an application, I would run the credit check just to be safe, and then mail the denial letter. That way you have something solid to deny on in case she tries to make problems for you. --50.89.xxx.xxx |
Service dog (by LisaFL [FL]) Posted on: Sep 28, 2016 6:07 AM Message:
If she paid a fee and filled out an application then obviously you'd process it because she paid you to. I don't encourage people to pay for screening of I know they will likely be declined. My screening service charges $35 for single applicants or $50 for a married couple. That's enough that I'm sure they don't want to waste it.
I go with my screening Guy's recommendation and that's what I tell them. So if they know their credit is very bad, or they have evictions on their record or irresponsible payment history I know they aren't likely to be approved so it's their option whether to apply or not. --173.170.xxx.xxx |
Service dog (by Beverly [KY]) Posted on: Sep 28, 2016 3:35 PM Message:
Hippd(KY) A tenant can get these Emotional Support Animals after they move in, too. --216.24.xx.x |
Service dog (by Ray-N-Pa [PA]) Posted on: Sep 28, 2016 4:43 PM Message:
What I find fascinating is ALL the service animals now a days...........I went 25 years without ever seeing a service animal - now I can't go 25 days without someone having a service animal calling me. --24.239.xx.xxx |
Service dog (by Gary [OK]) Posted on: Sep 28, 2016 5:40 PM Message:
I sure like what Barb said about asking for documentation from doctor and then tell prospective tenant you will confirm documentation with the doctor.
--98.184.xxx.xxx |
Service dog (by Beverly [KY]) Posted on: Sep 28, 2016 6:12 PM Message:
For a Service Animal there is documentation. For an Emotional Support Animal a person can just go on the internet and get a certificate. --74.137.xxx.xxx |
Service dog (by J [FL]) Posted on: Sep 29, 2016 4:23 AM Message:
Beverly,
I think they have to have a letter from a health care provider for an ESA. I don't believe most of those certificate companies online are legit.
--50.89.xxx.xxx |
Service dog (by Beverly [KY]) Posted on: Sep 29, 2016 7:09 AM Message:
The attorney at the REIA pre-meeting said for the Emotional Support Animals this is all legal for them to go online and get a certificate. They don't have to see a medical person or any person. There are agencies now calling and asking questions of landlords so they can be fined. --216.24.xx.x |
Service dog (by J [FL]) Posted on: Sep 29, 2016 7:32 AM Message:
It was my understanding that you could ask the tenant for a letter from a health care provider.
If the certificate agency has a health care provider and they provide that letter as part of the cost, I can see that. But a "certification" from one of those fly by night companies means nothing in and of itself. --50.89.xxx.xxx |
Service dog (by Beverly [KY]) Posted on: Sep 29, 2016 7:57 AM Message:
You are right J. It means nothing. I just know the attorney said all they have to do is go online and get the certificate. It is legit to use. They don't have to go to a health care provider or see one.....just go online. --216.24.xx.x |
Service dog (by J [FL]) Posted on: Sep 29, 2016 8:09 AM Message:
What that attorney is saying sounds incorrect. --50.89.xxx.xxx |
Service dog (by Emily [TX]) Posted on: Sep 29, 2016 8:56 AM Message:
I agree it sounds like this lawyer doesn't know what s/he is talking about. --155.201.xx.xx |
Service dog (by LL in [IN]) Posted on: Sep 29, 2016 1:01 PM Message:
No, what he means is that prospective (or current) tenants can go online and get an ESA letter by simply doing a short quiz that passes for "evaluation" and paying a fee.
Half a dozen sites provide this service at any time. --68.39.xxx.xxx |
Service dog (by Beverly [KY]) Posted on: Sep 30, 2016 10:14 AM Message:
Right LL. This attorney (she) is very knowledgeable in this area of law and represents many people in our large REIA group. She is working with someone right now that got telephone calls from one of the organizations asking questions about Emotional Support Animals trying to get them to say something wrong so they could be fined. This landlord does not accept "pets" at all and didn't realize he could not turn down Emotional Support Animals. You can't think of them as pets......even though they may be. --216.24.xx.x |
Service dog (by mike [CA]) Posted on: Oct 5, 2016 8:44 AM Message:
this is a topic we shall revisit until time ends.
if they are scammers you can smell that on them. 20 somethings with a rat-dog in a purse will NEVER get into my unit. if they are a blind guy with a labrador...OF COURSE THEY GET IN. they will be paying the maximum legal deposit but they are welcome. same with a veteran with PTSD...i get it. the crazy cat lady? sorry, not gonna happen.
this gets to the way you screen, and that starts with the very first contact. legit animals are not "pets" and so make sure you ask EARLY about pets AND service animals. also get it out there early that you do not permit pit bulls. the code in calif says you must make reasonable accommodations. you are not obligated to permit a dog which causes your insurer to drop you and you ARE permitted to FORCE the tenants to have insurance as a condition of the tenancy which names the dog and breed and also names you as an additional insured. my tanants are required to have 1 million in liability, a $250 deductible and to name me as an additional insured.
all that said, those who have no problem gaming the system can usually be denied for reasons of their past or crummy credit. a close to the vest manner will give you the room to move to boost them out for other reasons.
those who get a "service" animal after taking residency get IMMEDIATE rent raises. this is why we use month to month tenancies.
--76.176.xxx.xxx |
Service dog (by John... [MI]) Posted on: Oct 5, 2016 9:07 AM Message:
Mike: To note it, it sounds like you've violated federal law with several statements there. Also, at one point, you seem to be ignoring differences between SERVICE animals and EMOTIONAL SUPPORT animals. But then, at other times, you want to treat them very differently even though the law that we have to worry about is almost the same for them.
Sorry, but your "I don't put up with this!" sort of statement is a legal landmine waiting to go off. Good luck.
- John...
--207.241.xxx.xxx |
Service dog (by mlynv [FL]) Posted on: Oct 22, 2016 1:45 PM Message:
You need to use common sense. If the tenant has a service animal or ESA, and requests a REASONABLE ACCOMMODATION to allow that animal, you MUST try to accommodate (unless you qualify for exemption, see last para). People who have a SA have legitimate disabilities--don't discriminate. People who have an ESA may also have a legitimate disability--be careful. You can legally ask for documentation in a non-discriminatory way such as: no pets, but can ask for reasonable accommodation for SA/ESA with documentary proof of need for accommodation (then list the documents needed—suggestions below).
You should EXPECT that at some point someone will ask for an accommodation, so be prepared and provide information on what documentation you require to approve an accommodation. You can legally ask for a letter from their TREATING PHYSICIAN (on letterhead) stating they are the tenant's current TREATING physician (can be physical or mental), and that the animal is NECESSARY (not simply “recommended” or “suggested”) for their patient's care and/or treatment. DO NOT ASK FOR DIAGNOSIS or specifics on disability--that is a violation of privacy. If this is a legitimate SA/ESA then they will have (or can get) the documentation from a legitimate source. By legitimate source I think the key word here is "treating" physician. Anyone can get an online certificate stating they "need" the ESA--heck, we could all use an ESA at times. But to prosecute for discrimination, a tenant would need to prove that the animal is “necessary” for their care and/or treatment--only a physician who has seen them IN PERSON and provided treatment can attest to that.
But also remember, if you set a standard requirement that ALL tenants must pass income, credit, eviction, current accommodation inspection, etc. is it likely that the SA/ESA issue will be a major problem? Not likely. If they pass all the other tests with flying colors (including satisfactory inspection of their CURRENT accommodations for cleanliness and clutter), and they make sufficient income to garnish for possible damages (YES, you can charge them when they leave if they damage—just can’t take extra deposits), then this may not be a major issue either—they may be a good tenant.
If all other indicators show you would have approved the tenant if not for their SA/ESA, then DO NOT LEAVE YOURSELF OPEN TO A CHARGE OF DISCRIMINATION BY REFUSING TO ACCOMMODATE! If red flags are coming up elsewhere, then you’re going to turn down their application anyway. Anyone who relies on these “online” certificates as their only documentation will most certainly have something come up as a red flag. Don’t argue with them—cover your a*s, take the application and run the checks.
FYI. . .
Property managers/landlords are NOT required to make a reasonable accommodation under the Fair Housing Act for ESAs or Service Animals in these cases:
Buildings with 4 or less units where the landlord occupies one of the units;
Single family housing sold or rented without a real estate broker.
--97.106.xxx.xxx |
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