@ Charlie.

The property is in harrisburg. My first mistake was asking landlords that had properties for yrs and yrs. B/c hardly anyone knows this.

2nd mistake was not evicting her after her rent was 11 days late. It got lost in the mail, i live rt. Next to the property. Then she told me i have to prove it was late? I said it never worked for me when the post office lost it.

Sorry Charlie ( I couldn't resist) , but the law (which will always trump anything in your lease) does indicate 24 hour notice. If you don't have a new address then send it to the only address you have ( your property address).

I suggest you read the statue. I'm not obligated to open an email? Are you?

Of course not.

The statue says there is no security reconciliation needed when tenant doesn’t provide new address. What don't ppl understand about new? And the fact that i live rt next to the property, 10 feet away? She had no problem coming up with an adendum to the lease and put it on paper.

This is why this country sucks and ppl just keep passing the buck and not fixing the issues. The first paragraph in the legal journal said that the law on security desposit is poorly written. Duh! It's a statue from 1972. There was no email, text messages, in 1972. Next time you get an email and you can't open it, make sure you sue them.

You are nit-picking on the law about the "new" address. She sent a forwarding address - her PO Box. It doesn't have to be a NEW address, just an address at which she accepts mail.

You should have created an accounting of the damages and mailed it to her. It's a SIMPLE thing to do, not complicated, and MUST BE DONE within 30 days if you are using *her* SD to fix damage or pay rent.

You are saying you didn't receive proper notice because she emailed you? But you did know she was moving, right? So you were notified.

I don't know about your state, but my state doesn't specify how notice is received from either party. Even verbal notice qualifies as notice.

And in my state you could be sued for treble damages, so be thankful for small favors, I guess.

Indeed. I agree with WMH.

Sorry, but you don't really want advice. You want someone to confirm that what you've already decided is right.

Lots of very experienced landlords here are explaining to you that you did not follow the law properly. Instead of taking that advice, you want to argue about it.

If you ask for advice and get it from people that know what they are talking about, then you should take it. Instead, you just wanted someone to tell you that you were right, they were wrong, and that's the end of it.

You're just not going to get that here. You're going to get legit advice from experienced people. Don't ignore it.

- John...

Charlie/PA, this website is invaluable as a learning tool. We were all in your place at one time.

All you can do at this point, if she is refusing to settle, is to go to court to plead your case. I don't know about PA - in NC we could file a counter-claim to be heard at the same time. In MA, for instance, you would have to file a separate suit altogether. So check your state laws regarding the handling of a Security Deposit.

It's really clear:

"RECOVERY OF IMPROPERLY HELD ESCROW FUNDS:

(a) Every landlord shall within thirty days of termination of a lease or upon surrender and acceptance of the leasehold premises, whichever first occurs, provide a tenant with a written list of any damages to the leasehold premises for which the landlord claims the tenant is liable. Deliver of the list shall be accompanied by payment of the difference between any sum deposited in escrow, including any unpaid interest thereon, for the payment of damages to the leasehold premises and the actual amount of damages to the leasehold premises caused by the tenant.

Nothing in this section shall preclude the landlord from refusing to return the escrow fund, including any unpaid interest thereon, for nonpayment of rent or for the breach of any other condition in the lease by the tenant.

(b) Any landlord who fails to provide a written list within thirty days as required in subsection (a), above, shall forfeit all rights to withhold any portion of sums held in escrow, including any unpaid interest thereon, or to bring suit against the tenant for damages to the leasehold premises.

(c) If the landlord fails to pay the tenant the difference between the sum deposited, including any unpaid interest thereon, and the actual damages to the leasehold premises caused by the tenant within thirty days after termination of the lease or surrender and acceptance of the leasehold premises, the landlord shall be liable in assumpsit to double the amount by which the sum deposited in escrow, including any unpaid interest thereon, exceeds the actual damages to the leasehold premises caused by the tenant as determined by any court of record or court not of record having jurisdiction in civil actions at law. The burden of proof of actual damages caused by the tenant to the leasehold premises shall be on the landlord.

(d) Any attempted waiver of this section by a tenant by contract or otherwise shall be void and unenforceable.

(e) Failure of the tenant to provide the landlord with his new address in writing upon termination of the lease or upon surrender and acceptance of the leasehold premises shall relieve the landlord from any liability under this section.

(f) This section shall apply only to residential leaseholds and not to commercial leaseholds. § 250.512."

The law IS poorly written - it does say NEW address and not FORWARDING address but the intent is clear. She DID provide it.

That's where i was, NC, when this all started. It took me completely by surprise b/c she told me she loved living here, even talked me into letting her have a cat. We can answer and do a counter claim in the same filing. I'm struggling with adding and exhibit with the answer. If opposing coucil, called it exhibit a, do i call it exhibit a, and put a copy of the document in my answer, or do i call it something new?

Charlie: think about it this way. At some point, if you push this, you will end up in court in front of a judge. He is going to ask you if you knew, at any point, that she had moved out and if you had SOME address for her. If you aren't going to lie to a judge, you're going to have to admit that, yes, you knew she had moved and that you had seen the POBox address. (You even admit it to us that you eventually saw the notice once you looked on a different phone.)

Now, you can argue all you want about whether or not she technically gave "proper" notice and a forwarding address. In the end, most judges are going to look at you and say "Regardless of all that, you knew on such-and-such-date that she had vacated. Therefore, your 30 days starts on that date."

And that will be the end of it. You simply had 30 days to send that final accounting to her -- either at her existing address or, more likely, at the POBox that she provided to you.

Sure, you could get a lawyer and try to bump this up to a higher court and argue that, by the letter of the law, her forwarding address was not provided in a proper manner. And MAYBE you'd get somewhere. Or, more likely, you'd have another judge say "Well, then you should have used her last known address -- which is your rental."

Because, again, we see that ALL THE TIME. It happens on move outs ALL THE TIME. And we still provide that accounting to make sure this sort of thing doesn't happen.

That's all we're saying here. You may have a glimmer of hope on a technicality of the law -- but, 95% of the time, a judge is going to see beyond that and just say that you should have met the 30 day deadline. You simply didn't do what most judges (and most of us) would expect you to do.

Sorry. I wish I had better news for you. But, clearly, you are in a lot of trouble here. You're 3 months behind on your mortgage. You're right on the edge of losing everything. You should be concerned about other things than this really. Because it sounds like even this would not be enough to save you.

More to the topic of saving your rental... What are you doing to prevent losing it? What is your plan to get out of this besides hoping that you get 5% lucky in court on this? THAT is what you need to be focusing on -- how to save your rental.

Either that, or time to get the For Sale signs up! Are you underwater in this property or do you have some equity in it? Can you sell it at market rates and pay off the mortgage in full?

- John...

Also, sorry, but all your other crap about a counter suit because she caused you to move and your lost income and blah, blah, blah is a joke. No judge is going to award you any of that. Again, you are concentrating on the wrong thing here. This tenant is NOT going to save your rental regardless of what you counter-sue for.

Time to move on and try to salvage things. Not keep fighting a losing battle with that one tenant.

- John...

+ 10 Likes to John...MI's and WMH's response.

To the original poster, I'm sorry to hear about your troubles. Rather than making excuses, let's try to find a solution.

If you're broke, I would try for an out of court settlement because based on all the info above I'm pretty sure a judge is going to hit you with double damages. Offer $1000 payable in $100 monthly installments (or something similar) and see if she'll sign a release from any further liability. Better than $2400 plus court costs.

I typed a response last evening and don't know what happened to it.

Remove ALL emotion from here forward. Focus on the facts.

She may or may not have given you notice of the new address. I don't communicate through texts and e-mails with my tenants so if they wanted to comply, they'd have to send me the new address through the mail. This MAY be a loop hole for you. Finding case law is probably beyond this forum ... you would need an attorney.

Again, remove everything other than the relevant facts. There is no requirement for a walk through sheet. that's totally irrelevant to this.

Going forward, ALWAYS send the required notice. I never wait 30 days. I send it asap. I used to use certified but now just get proof of mailing.

Don't worry about the cat. Don't worry about how nice you were. if you left a paying job because of a tenant, that's on you.

I personally feel Pennsylvania is very fair to landlords. Why didn't you send the letter to her last known address ... your rental unit?

you have a very good landlord association. you should attend some of the meetings to gain some confidence.

Again, if we remove from your posts what isn't pertinent, about 90% of the posting would be removed. Remove everything from your thoughts except how to salvage this and your only hope is a loop hole for the forwarding address.

Let's talk about this part:

How did you come up with the amount to withhold from her deposit? How did it come to equal exactly her deposit?

Do you have pictures of the damage she caused? Do you have receipts for the fixes?

If you really did not receive her forwarding address until the actual lawsuit was filed, you MAY have an out, as PA law does specifically address that little loophole.

IF she sent the info to you via text and you didn't receive it, can you prove that?

In fact, being behind in the mortgage is going to hurt you because Judge could likely believe you improperly held her deposit as INCOME to you rather than for financial damages.

How come every exlandlord says the opposite. There is no money for a lawyer. 90% of my post is me repeating the facts, but no one reads them. The other issues are relevant, because is addresses her character. There's compensatory damages. Maybe, not spelled rt. Ppl actions, effect other actions. That's why ppl file other complaints 2ndary to the 1st law suit. If she was an honest person she would just take a reasonable settlement. You can't reason with a unreasonable person, and that is who she is.

That's the thing. You landlords might not know, you can't just send a letter for damages, you have to have itemized receipts for everything.

Charlie, representing yourself in this is a bad idea - you don't know the law and you're angry about everything. District Justices will not see things in your favor for those two reasons.

If you truly have no income, then contact legal aid for your county. Hopefully, someone will be able to take this on pro bono, and salvage something for you - maybe get you a tiny monthly payment plan. MAYBE find that address loophole, but I doubt it.

Charlie - her character does not matter. This is a civil suit to recover money, period. If you start ranting in court about her character, your hardships, financial difficulties outside of the lawsuit, breach of lease, etc. the judge is going to shut you down and rule in her favor. This is not an eviction hearing. This is not a suit brought by you to get her out.

And remember: she is a cop. She likely has friends at the courthouse.

Your only defense here are pictures and/or itemized lists of damages caused by her, and records of late or unpaid rent totaling the deposit and more. There are no other legal reasons to withhold it.

All of the breaches of lease that occurred back then are on you for allowing them to continue: next time, bring an eviction action for breach of lease when they occur.

Sell the rental asap, save your house(I'm assuming it is in foreclosure being 3 months late) and start taking responsibility for all the mistakes you made. You sit here blaming everyone but yourself. If you educated yourself on the laws and did things correctly you would not be in this boat. Your story also if you read every post changes. I don't believe anything you say to be honest.

I'm changing my advice due to the original poster's repeat attempts to justify what is essentially unjustifiable behavior by saying we don't "get it." Actually, we do get it...and you're about to "get it" handed to you by a judge.

You say we didn't read your facts. Yes, we did. In FACT you are three months behind on your mortgage and on the road to losing this house. In FACT you admit you are broke and have no money in one of the most cash hungry investments known to mankind. In FACT you did not send the security deposit accounting as required by law. In FACT your lack of access to basic land lording law and means of communications with your tenant led to this mess, and you are going to lose this case if it goes before a judge. You have presented other "facts" that may be true, but are irrelevant. I'm not calling you a liar or trying to defend this tenant. I'm saying your focus is badly misplace and you're in no condition emotionally or financially to continue pushing this rock up a hill. It is going to roll back down and squash you.

Last attempt at good advice: Get this house on the market to sell today. Use any proceeds to pay off the tenant's claim. If no proceeds are left after selling, tell tenant she can sue and attempt to squeeze blood from a rock.

I'm sorry to say that based on everything shared today you don't need to be a land lord at this point in life. Get rid of this cursed property and focus on developing a source of reliable income that doesn't put you and your daughter at such risk.

whoo horsey

you can't change the pass.

Your attitude is very defense, the facts are the facts, the law is the law, change your attitude and approach this with your business thinking, it may or may not be a favorable outcome but you will be going thru it and best if you don't get caught up in "her character" ,,, use your business head.

It sounds like you have alot on your plate and the stress is mounding and you really didn't need this right now, Sorry about all that, relax. I'm a bit concerned that you didn't pay the mortgage payment and will loose the property anyway, or do you have a plan for that? Try and relax and get your thinking clear, you'll be in a much better position to get thru this if you have some support from local friends and landlords.

Praying for you to find some peace with this very expensive lesson.

It's rough.

John...has some great advice. Try to pick up the pieces and channel it into creatively finding your way out of this. Find a landlord group in your area, try to find some free legal counsel. Get a mentor, a landlord in your area who can give you some pointers.

Look, some people are jerks. Your tenant is one of them. It almost would have been better if they had harassed you to the point of sending over that list of charges.

But all of us have been new landlords at one time and have (unless we have a great personal landlord advisor) made HUGE and terrible mistakes, even worse than yours. But you can let it shape you into the type of landlord you need to be or you can just be angry and give up and turn your back on the lessons it will provide If you let it. If there were any other avenues, this forum would with all of its combined experience tell you so. It's time to move out of the denying, and start accepting this and move past it. You have to for your own peace and for your daughter.

Stay strong.

Charlie, I answered but the original post didn't show up ... I guess because I included a link to your local landlord association.

statutes and case law are WAY beyond this forum... you need legal help for those.

Charlie: I think part of the problem is that even your "facts" are hard to follow because of all of the side issues you keep throwing it.

I'd actually love to see a well-written exact timeline of things involving the original tenant. Leave out anything about the 2nd tenant after that you had to evict, your mortgage situation, and so on.

Just give us the exact timeline of what happened with that tenant. When was the last date that she made a rent payment to you? When was her lease supposed to be up? What was the date that she told you she was not renewing? Was there a date that she said she was out? When did you realize that she was actually out? Did you ever go in and look around? On what date?

Again, if you want some real help about the actual court case, then give us the timeline. Because when the entire case is about whether or not you followed a specific timeline for the S/D accounting, it is all of these dates that really, really matter.

So, give us the exact dates that we're talking about -- and we'll see what we can suggest. Maybe the facts are different than what we're all thinking -- but that would be because you explained it to us poorly. Give us one post with all of the dates in order -- and let's go from there.

- John...

Blah, blah. I know all this now. Where were you when i scraped everything together to buy this? Ppl are jumping in asking the same questions that i answered 3 times, and then when i give more detail, i'm a liar? I know the imoral statue about the security, etc.

My original question was case law on the subject citing when the landlord forgot, or didn't think he had to give this letter.

I should of wrote her fowarding address for her, and mailed it for her too.

Where were you when i scraped everything together to buy this?

No time line for me to answer that.

Ppl are jumping in asking the same questions that i answered 3 times, and then when i give more detail, i'm a liar?

I did not read that anyone said such.

My original question was case law on the subject citing when the landlord forgot, or didn't think he had to give this letter.

Looks like we are wasting our time here folks.

This is a business. You have to spend money on incidentals like certified letters to CYA.

I

I'm beginning to suspect Charlie is a troll or a tenant...

"the imoral statue about the security"

Those dang statutes have been brazen lately, haven't they? (wink)

P.S. Charlie...the reason you got 45 emails is you SIGNED UP FOR THEM when you posted. There's a message at the bottom of every post that says, "Would you like to be notified via email when somebody replies to this thread? "... and you have to fill out your email address to receive those.

"If Landlord forgot or didn't think they had to give this letter..." then they are liable for double damages. That's the law. Are you looking for some example of when this was not required?

"I'm beginning to suspect Charlie is a troll or a tenant..."

I think he's a real landlord. I just think he thought he was going to get all kinds of support from other landlords blaming the tenant. And that just isn't what happened here. He got the truth instead -- not just confirmation that he was right.

Again, I think lots of us would continue to try to help -- if he'd be willing to give us the real details. But, even when I asked politely, he still refuses to do so.

- John...

All Charlie can do is file a counter-claim for damages, providing the accounting he should have provided to the tenant 30 days after move-out as evidence, and claim he did not have her forwarding address.

Then it's up to the Judge.

No Charlie is not a troll, but indeed a landord, an extremely frustrated one, who like many new landlords, is trying to deal with this on an emotional level.

Guys you've given it your best shot and don't feel that it was done in vain, because there are literally thousands of lurkers to this site every day who are following tis and other threads. And since others are not as emotionally and financially involved, I'm sure many are learning from the truly tough challenges and experience Charlie is facing.

The sad thing is, in his present frame of mind, he can't realize that so many of us have been where he is to one degree. I appreciate those of you who continued to try and help a fellow landlord without personal attacks. That's part of what makes this such a great supportive site for landlords.

Yea guys. I messaged the details but it didn't post yet. I do have a meeting w/ pa state senator rob teplizt. When i called his office, his staffer, Pat, said you have great timing. Just talked another person w/ similar issues.

I just got my certification of docket and judgement from the court house for the last dead beat, now i have to figure out how to collect. Good luck, rt. That's the guy that didn't pay rent since May, and it took me until Aug 15, to get him out.

I'm curious what you plan to talk to the State Senator about. What do you plan to say to him about something like this? What do you think should be different?

And, hopefully, your post will come through soon and, assuming it is a timeline as requested, we can give some better advice.

- John...

The monitor is editing me on here.

One ideal i have is to require the tenant on move out, to send their forwarding address by certified mail to the landlord or they forfeit their security deposit. A eye for an eye, sort of speak.

That won't float. In most states, you can't punish the tenant for making a mistake. You get to keep part of a S/D based on DAMAGES caused to you. You generally can't write clauses that say "I give up the right to my entire S/D if..."

So, you'll never get a legal clause that would hold up in court that says "if the tenant doesn't give a proper forwarding address, then they forfeit their deposit." Just isn't going to happen.

Even in states where the law is clear about what happens if the tenant doesn't provide that forwarding address, they don't magically lose their right to it. They just lose their right to sue for extra. In most cases, if the LL really can't send it anywhere, then it still is the property of the tenant. That is why we often recommend sending it to their last known address (your rental) if they don't give one. If it forwards, great! If not, then you document that when you get it back.

In any case, if you end up with their S/D and no place to send it, then you still have to follow the law for how to handle money owed to someone that they can't contact -- so, in most cases, you need to contact your state's unclaimed funds division and report it.

Long story short: No, that clause will never be legal, sorry. Eye for an eye doesn't cut it.

- John...

You are asking the tenant to be more professional and responsible than the landlord. If they could do that they would buy a house and not need us anymore...

Costs of doing business.

I wouldn't waste your energy on this.

Sure, i signed up for notifications, it shouldn't send you a notification for every single post when one person responds. Once again, basic, no brainer.

She rented the house, 1yr. Lease. April 3rd 2015 moved in.

Lease ended april 3rd 2016.

Her lawyer said april 2? Idk. Am i not counting something rt?

She sent called me sometime in march saying she was not renewing the lease.

Sent me an email march 25 w/ a pdf attachment. The attachment which i could not open. But i could see the "nonrenewl of lease" i was not home.

I came home 2wks before She physically moved out march 25th, 2016. but told me she was moving out april 2, 2016.

She sent me a text message that day, march 25th, 2016, saying the keys are in your mailbox as you requested. That's not what i requested. Anyway,that was on the same day, 25th of march, 2016.

I inspected the property later that day.

Then worked on it 10-12 hrs. For 4 days.

Then started writing dn all the other things previously in the yr. Along with gathering those notes which i had throughout the yr.

To avoid too many notifications, only put your email in one time. I think you get duplicates if you put it in every time you submit an answer.

You would not count the anniversary day as the lease ending day. Lease usually ends one day before.

Honestly, I think you need to get some free)legal advice from a lawyer. I think Nicole sent a link or something. It is difficult to see any difference in what you've said previously and what you are saying now. Dates are good but the situation appears to be the same.

There was a failure to communicate resulting in a statute violation. The tenant has to be able to communicate with you. If there has been communication to you or from you by that email in the past, the tenant has good reason to believe that it will be reliable to communicate at that time. It is not the tenants fault that you could not open the email in a timely manner nor receive an address that you deemed "new". It was your responsibility to maintain that line of communication open as that is what you provided to the tenant. You could have also texted the tenant to request it be sent as a text or a photo or via the certified mail that you would like to enforce in a court of law. Or you could have simply texted her to say, what's the address I can send the security deposit charges to. Anything really. But it seems that you avoided doing this. Yes, your tenant knows the law too well. But it is your responsibility to know it. That is what the posters here have tried to say. If you don't want to continue to be burned, learn your state laws and follow them to the letter.

Ok, well, now that you've posted the timeline, I guess I still don't see it. She officially returned possession to you on March 25th when she returned the keys. And, it sounds like, she also attempted to give you an address on that date (since you said before that the POBox address was in the PDF that you couldn't open).

Therefore, your 30 days to account for the S/D started on March 25th. (Some MIGHT argue that with a lease ending on April 3rd, that it technically started then even though you had possession before that -- but, either way, I don't think it matters here.)

So, you had until April 25th (or maybe May 2nd) to get that accounting sent to the POBox.

The fact that you had phone problems and couldn't open the PDF isn't going to mean much to a judge.

Also, reading through the PA laws, I can't find anything that exempts the Landlord from having to return the S/D even if they don't provide a forwarding address (even though I think, technically, yours did). But, again, even if she didn't, it looks to me like you're still on the hook for returning it. The most recent section added in 2014 for handling personal property left behind specifically states that you must mail them at the rental address if you didn't get a forwarding address from them.

In other words, the state seems pretty lenient toward tenants that don't get a forwarding address. So, I don't see you getting around this. She returned possession to you on a specific date -- on a lease that was terminating soon after. That's all going to look very reasonable to a judge. And then she sent you a document as a PDF (which is pretty common these days) with the forwarding address. Again, I don't think a judge is going to look kindly to your excuse that you couldn't open it on your phone.

I wish you luck, of course, but I just don't see you having much in the way of legal ground to stand on here.

- John...

Also, since you said "That's not what i requested" about the keys, I can't help but ask... What DID you request her to do at the end of the lease? Did you send her a letter a month or so before the lease expired asking her intentions? Did you give instructions on how to return the keys to you and a reminder to give you her forwarding address?

What action did YOU take before the lease ended to prepare for her move-out exactly?

- John...

You do need to drop all the side issues 14 yr old daughter, other eviction, 3 months behind on rent, her cat, her refusal to let you in, you were out of state, she didn't notify you properly etc, it only makes you sound like a ranting maniac. It does nothing to help you.

There is no case law that is going to help you here. The PA landlord/tenant act was written in 1951 and the requirement to return the security deposit has been in since then. You were aware that she moved out, your ignorance of the law does not get you off the hook.

From your rant, I'm not sure you even know how much of her deposit you can keep. Your time fixing the house is not allowed. You must have receipts for repairs and late rent notices should have been mailed.

I'm not sure how this case ended up at the county courthouse. Under $12,000 jurisdiction belongs with the magistrate whose district the rental property is in. My first response to you was the magistrate might take pity on you. The county court will not. I also advised that you could make them work to collect the money but I did not know your ex-tenant was an officer. You don't stand a chance to make collection hard.

pardon my directness, but you are an example of someone NOT cut out for landlording. if you are not willing to tool up with a computer and a printer you have no one to blame but yourself. really...a printer is $50 delivered by amazon and a simple computer is less than $200

the deposit accounting and return rules are crystal clear and have double and treble damages for EXACTLY this reason. lots of tenants have been shanked...therefore, the laws

the question was asked about proving how one complied with the law. in most jurisdictions simple first class mail is fine but i like to add a level of proof. the post office has a form 3817, certificate of mailing, that costs about $1.50.

i have a memo that goes to the tenants when they give notice asking THEN for the forwarding address and another when they return keys and sign my return of possession memo. if they choose to leave that blank i send it to their last known address...the home they are vacating. no law anywhere says you have to track them down. if the mail you send does not get fwd'd keep it in the file.

you have a loser case here and need to take the beating, sell the house and call it a lesson learned.

if you do not sell it YOU NEED TO START LEARNING ABOUT THE LAW AND JOIN THE LOCAL APARTMENT OWNERS ASSOCIATION OR IT'S EQUIVALENT. such organizations are crucial to newby's.