I have enjoyed seeing the posts of some of my Christian brothers and sisters in this forum. It's one of the very few secular Internet sites that I've seen (and I go back to the BBS days) where the community has been tolerant of believers. Most other secular forums on the Internet where Christian thought is even hinted seems to be flamebait and the trolls are out in full force right away.

Thank you to the entire mrlandlord community for fostering this attitude! I believe it says a lot about the character and reputation of those Christians who have participated in this community, but also speaks to the professionalism and courtesy of those who are not...

I'd appreciate the input from this community -- even from those who aren't religious at all -- as to whether a Christian in the business world (specifically as a landlord) can acceptably move from just showing Christian character to "proselytizing" tenants. NOTE: This is what we would call "witnessing" -- obeying the final instructions of our Savior.

Also, I have a few questions directed to those of you who would identify yourselves as believers:

- Do your tenants know you are a believer?

- Would you ever witness to a non-believer who is a tenant?

- Does your church community know that you are a landlord?

- Would you rent to believers from your church?

- Would you sue tenants who owed you rent if they were believers?

- Have you ever needed to evict a tenant who knew of your Chritianity? Did this become an issue for your testimony?

J.beach..

Well what happens when things turn 'sour'

'turn the other cheek'..

Taking action in any form is your choice..

your agreement and laws allow certain action.. your choice if you use them or not..

The other cheek is also used in other beliefs..

Good questions! Here are my answers

Do your tenants know you are a believer? We usually mention in passing that we will “come over after church” or something like that… That way they can ask questions if they desire but we do not push or witness to them until THEY ask the questions.

Would you ever witness to a non-believer who is a tenant? Only if they showed an interest first. Otherwise it is undue pressure on them. They may even have legal recourse if they thought they were being pressured. After all, you are in a position of "authority" over them. You need to be careful because if they feel like you have retaliated against them they can go after you in court even if it had nothing to do with it.

- Does your church community know that you are a landlord?Yes, our friends and pastor do but we don't go around announcing it to strangers.

- Would you rent to believers from your church? If they passed all the income and background checks like anyone else did, yes.

- Would you sue tenants who owed you rent if they were believers? If I had to - just like anyone else. I think I would give my pastor a heads up first though and maybe try to work it out instead of going to court but still - Yes.

- Have you ever needed to evict a tenant who knew of your Chritianity? Did this become an issue for your testimony?

Not yet but why would it? If I am fair and honest and I have to evict someone I would do it. If I have to take someone to court there's nothing bad or wrong in doing that. I would never take advantage or be hateful to someone but I would do what I needed to do. It's a business after all. If I don't treat it as such I will lose my business.

Good questions beach3....I'll give it a shot:

- Do your tenants know you are a believer? I do not go out of my way to tell them. My actions should speak of that louder than my words. If they ask or make comments that lead to a conversation along that route, I openly participate.

- Would you ever witness to a non-believer who is a tenant? Tough question. I do not 'know' which tenants believe and which do not. Also, not sure what fits the definition of witnessing. Do I hand out tracts? No. As with the first question, my actions are my witness. If/when they ask me why I do 'X' when other land lords do 'Y', I slip in a "Just following my Master's instructions" and see where it goes.

- Does your church community know that you are a landlord?

There are many in my church who know we manage rental property. A few who know we have our LLC's name on the Deeds. I really do see myself as an assets manager for God, so while there are practical advantages to being "the manager, not the owner" I also believe this is the right spiritual attitude to take towards any asset.

- Would you rent to believers from your church?

I have not done this yet. You'll see why in the next answer.

- Would you sue tenants who owed you rent if they were believers? Yes, after all other options at resolution failed, I would have no choice but to have the law remove them just as I do with any other tenant. As to what I would do with the debt, I would most likely collect it or attempt to settle unless the tenant and I achieved a separate reconciliation. To be clear, I would explain my expectations up front, just as I do with all tenants. If someone is a "brother or sister in Christ" I would expect them not to steal rent from me and not expect me to grant them special favor just because they are 'part of the club.' Someone in violation of the 7th Commandment doesn't get to lecture me about my faith when they are the reason we're having problems. Can't pay? Move out. I am very aware of the Bible's instruction against law suits among believers. However, God set up a system of justice and judges throughout Scripture to deal with disputes among his people, and nowhere does he say I am obliged to allow a fellow believer steal from me. I may show mercy when the time is right, certainly. One must also consider it is also currently the law of the land that I must treat all tenants fairly and without discrimination based on religion, and that includes making discriminatory practices that favor Christian tenants over non-Christian tenant by allowing them to stay when other tenants are forced to pay. Basically, that is discrimination against people not of my faith, which is illegal, and the Bible instructs us to obey the law of the land as long as it does not transgress the law of God. Expecting people to pay their bills is not against the law of God: in fact, it actually can be stated the other way around. Again, I may chose to show mercy when the time is right, once the formal proceedings are concluded. But I would also want to see repentance and acknowledgement that what they did was wrong; otherwise, have they truly turned away from a life of stealing, and am I just giving a drunk a drink by enabling them not to deal with their problems? One must discern each case individually.

- Have you ever needed to evict a tenant who knew of your Christianity? Did this become an issue for your testimony?

Yes, I have. Regarding testimony, are you referring to testimony at court trial or as a witness for Christ? Regardless, it affects neither. I told the truth in court without shaming or belittling the tenant. The responses were that I was a "#@$%, lying, slum lord." I think their poor attitude was the problem, not me following fair business practices. My calm, respectful responses were probably much nicer than the shouting matches such people normally get into, so perhaps that was my witness. Treating someone with dignity even when they are screwing you over is rare these days.

jbeach,

Great question! We used to wrestle with this everyday.

I could write a book! Some quick thoughts:

-There are 2370 references to handling money/doing business in the Bible. Overall it says "pay your bills".

-Jesus used money examples to explain our sin debt to God. A payment must be made.

-In Paul's time court was a public spectacle and by the witness of 2 people someone could be locked up (and die in prison) or put to death. Today's court is slow and almost painless for the evictee. No one is strung up by their thumbs or even forced to pay! A local LL showed me her check for a court ordered garnishment on a $2500 judgment: $1.59 per month!! We have plenty at $5-50 per month.

-God establishes the govt (even THIS election!!) and we are instructed to follow the laws even if we do not like them. The ONLY law to remove a non-payer is eviction court.

-Matthew 18:15+ 15 “Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. [BRAD: deliver the late letter]

16 But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that ‘by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.' [BRAD: The second notice is the court filing. We are now bringing in the law and maybe a lawyer as our "second" witness. Again, no surprises and an opportunity to make things right.]

17 And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. [BRAD: some versions say ELDERS, meaning a higher authority. We use the judge as the fair and just higher authority. He is not quick to toss people on the street and will give them extra time if they have a valid delay.]

But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector. [BRAD: "outsiders" who refuse to cooperate. Separate yourself thru eviction.]

We still treat evictees with respect. Crazy but they often hug Wifey in court because we do not shame them, we simple ask them to go find a place they can afford.

We stick to the written lease and treat everyone the same.

-Witnessing: is done by the Holy Spirit. We cannot talk/argue someone into believing. My first duty is to serve God by serving this person as the best property manager I can be. Somehow they pick up that I'm a Christian. I DO drop little catch phrases like "We better be prayed up:)" when they mention a death in the family or car accident. I'll give their kids a Ten Commandment coin or Million Dollar Bill with a salvation message on the back. If they ask, I'll tell them more and point them to a church.

Tip: practice to be able to tell the Good News in ONE SENTENCE! They don't want a sermon.

-Don't be naive and believe this resident will not turn around and sue you, no matter how nice they are. Their atty will do the dirty work.

Hope this helps!

BRAD

Love it, Brad! I was looking forward to your response...

Thanks for your wisdom and scripture-filled response. You're speaking my language!

A lot of people here who claim to be Christians or follow the Lord , will not rent to pastors or members of their own church, not to mention police officers.

For us it's the opposite: we are not Christian but I would bet 99% of our residents are. We live in the South: it is not uncommon to hear a lively discussion about Jesus in the aisles of the local Walmart.

We hear "Bless this day!" and "Thank the Lord!" and all sorts of other types of Christian testimony on a regular basis.

To which we do not respond at all, which seems to be code for dropping the subject, thank goodness.

I don't want ANY religion mixed with my government, and I don't want it mixed into my business either.

If my Landlord tried to proselytize any faith at all to me, I would feel EXTREMELY uncomfortable.

Kind of disturbing this post. Many years ago we found that us believing has nothing to do with those who espouse to believe.

Too many "god bless" and "praise you" and "I'm praying on it" have deceived us. Hate to say we turn a blind eye to it but most don't live the golden rule and church on Sunday is just a fashion show or shouting and yelling haliluya!!!!!!

I know many here won't believe this but skipping out on rent or not paying it or destruction of a rental is viewed as OK. Really OK?

Thanks for your input, WMH (as well as others with similar viewpoints.) My intention is never to push Christianity on people where it is unwanted. However, sometimes the kind of Christian testimony to which you refer becomes part of our normal vocabulary and can also become a gauge for receptivity.

As you noted, giving no response is a good way to communicate that you're not interested and I certainly take that hint. I don't advocate mixing the government with religion either, but as a person of faith my business decisions and practices are motivated (at least in part) by my Christianity.

I hope that the ways that have been suggested by others as non-obtrusive reference points (noting church as part of my life or offering to pray for a health need) are still acceptable to introduce a conversation without "pushing my religion" on someone. If they follow up or ask questions, I would consider that a green light for further discussion (even in a business environment.)

I treat everyone the same and that means I treat them well because they are my clients and neighbors.

I don't want to know there religion and I am sure they don't want to know mine.

I don't see any point in your discussion unless you plan to a. force your beliefs on your tenant

b. discriminate against someone who does not share your beliefs.

The only time there is a religious element is at holidays when I put up wreaths on all the buildings and give my Jewish tenants some Hannukah gifts and they give me a poinsettia.

Here are my perspectives.

- Do your tenants know you are a believer?

They might. I don't try to get personal with my tenants. I keep things professional. I confess when asked but I don't press.

- Would you ever witness to a non-believer who is a tenant?

No, I try not to get personal with a tenant. Complicates things.

- Does your church community know that you are a landlord?

Some do, but we don't broadcast it.

- Would you rent to believers from your church?

If they were good enough to be approved then yes, but with hesitation. If they stopped paying, it would create problems at church.

- Would you sue tenants who owed you rent if they were believers?

Without hesitation. I pick my charities to donate to. My tenants aren't one of them. It's a business.

- Have you ever needed to evict a tenant who knew of your Chritianity? Did this become an issue for your testimony?

No, but it wouldn't make a difference.

I do not share my religious beliefs with my tenants. I do not proselytize. In fact, I try to keep my relationship with my tenants as professional and impersonal as possible. I do NOT want to encourage "human contacts" which might encourage sob stories and drama. Pay me the rent, report to me the problems for which I am responsible, and let's not be friends!!

My religious principles require me to be fair and honest in my dealings with my fellow man, regardless of his/her own religious claims. I try to be! But that does not mean that I will allow someone to be a burden on me. Someone claiming to be in need can go to the Church or the guvmint or some other social service program, and not to me. I try to be generous, but I prefer to support my Church and my Church's food bank/soup kitchen, local homeless shelters, and other official programs -- I do not hand out a lot of cash to the so-called homeless (although I do it far too often -- I also hand out food. When Arby's or McD's or Burger K's has a Two for $__ Special, and I want one, I will often buy the Two for $___ and hand the second to a street person.). So I am willing to evict -- fairly and honestly!

- Do your tenants know you are a believer? yes

- Would you ever witness to a non-believer who is a tenant? Yes, I feel that I am obligated to do so.

- Does your church community know that you are a landlord? Yes

- Would you rent to believers from your church? Yes

- Would you sue tenants who owed you rent if they were believers? Not unless they refused to handled the matter as described Matthew 18: 15-17

- Have you ever needed to evict a tenant who knew of your Chritianity? Did this become an issue for your testimony? No, I have not evicted.

I prefer my tenants know as little as possible about me. We have a business relationship, not a social relationship. I am willing to evict anyone who needs to be evicted. I run a business, not a charity. I also do not want to be sued for religious discrimination if a potential tenant thinks my religion affected my choice in tenants or somehow affected our dealings.

" So far, I've been very fortunate to have excellent tenants"

Sounds like someone just started a new career or

has very few rentals.

jbeach,

Rule #2: NEVER rent to family or friends, this includes church family. Only rent to people you are willing to evict. "I'd rather be your friend than your LL because sometimes I have to evict. wink wink smiley face.

My pastor called asking if I had a home to rent to our new associate pastor. I told him my rule.

His response was "WOW! That's a great rule! That solves sooo many church body issues, hard feelings, and arguments!" Can you imagine having to evict your assoc pastor or your child's Sunday School teacher ot he old lady who serves food at funeral dinners?!

Money changes a relationship. Even as simple as two college roommates and one owes the other $5.

I have broken this rule a few times when I thought we were beyond it. It is impossible to worship or even pray when the guy sitting 3 chairs over owes you $2300.

BRAD

PS I tell them "Company policy will not let me rent to church family but I WILL be happy to help you find a place. I can put you in contact with some solid LLs."

Another LL at our church DID rent to the new assoc pastor. The assoc and his family have been missionaries out of country and are relocating to Indiana. His VISA was delayed 3 months so the house is sitting vacant except for all the church members in and out of the house delivering/donating furniture and INSPECTING the home from top to bottom. "Why didn't he fix THIS!" That LL's "business" is now being scrutinized by a league of Church Ladies. NOTHING is clean enough or good enough.

>I have broken this rule a few times when I thought we were beyond it. It is impossible to worship or even pray when the guy sitting 3 chairs over owes you $2300.<

We got the Golden Rule from Jesus.

"Do to others as you would have them do to you." Luke 6:31

Sorry for those of you who had to wade through a lot of spirituality in order to get to my questions. I recognize that my spiritual choices don't match those of the majority of the people in this community.

I hoped that my subject would allow those who were interested to notice and comment while allowing those to whom Christianity is offensive or strange to move on without wasting their time. I appreciate everyone's input and can see the value of keeping the relationship "strictly business".

Those of you who are guessing that I'm new / small time are pretty close. There is only one property and I've been renting for less than five years. So far, this is working just as I had always imagined -- I have enjoyed every part -- from the pre-qualification interviews to the final lease signing of someone that I feel will take care of the home I've worked hard to make attractive and profitable.

I have been very careful about the people I select and thanks to this community have a high set of standards for consideration. I receive tremendous interest every time I've listed and can eliminate all but the ones with the best credit ratings. (My last two tenants were 750+.)

The reason for my question is that my new tenants brought up the subject of their faith at the signing of the lease and I needed to consider the implications. It caused me to do some soul-searching about how I would handle various scenarios and I appreciate having some people in this community with whom I share similar spiritual experience.

Brad, you are so right about renting to your fellow members:

"It is impossible to worship or even pray when the guy sitting 3 chairs over owes you $2300" I don't know if your services include the sign of peace, but I would find it very hard with a tenant/ex-T who owes me money!

"That LL's "business" is now being scrutinized by a league of Church Ladies. NOTHING is clean enough or good enough."

And Jay was right with this:

"I also do not want to be sued for religious discrimination if a potential tenant thinks my religion affected my choice in tenants or somehow affected our dealings."

It's a little different here in the middle of the Bible belt. My tenants generally know my faith, not to push it on them but I generally mention that if they have an emergency on Sunday morning we may not answer the phone.

Like Brad, I don't rent to family, including Church family. That said, I have on a couple of occasions let a new pastor use a vacant rental for a couple of months when they move to town and are in the process of buying a house.

We have on many occasions suggested to a tenant who is struggling financially a personal story on how a financial class through our Church really reduced our family stress. I tie this into the discussion that I really don't want to evict them so don't make me. That said, I would evict them in a heartbeat. I also don't enable alcoholics by offering them liquor, along the same principle. Witnessing to someone isn't just sharing your testimony but can also be as simple as offering a life lesson that plants a seed.

Not only do our key Church leaders know I'm a landlord, I have two pastors that are now landlords that I mentor. That said, I don't generally openly share at Church outside of those I have a good relationship with because it then requires me to explain why I don't rent to family.

Davie[MI], I rented to a pastor family before and it was ugly. To some "pastors", it is just a profession. I had to evict people who has bibles nicely set aside the night stand and mantle. I don't know how to apply the bible to today's world when there is a pan handler at every street corner.

Jbeach3, I asked similar question couple years ago when I first got on board.. I still struggle..

couple days ago I read Matthew 13:22 again and it stuck in my head. Am I ?? "the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful."

I am not ready to give up everything, including the family to ... Some brothers/sisters remind me that it is a calling and don't rush it.

I have been a believer for more than 10 years now and I still don't know what I am supposed to do.. Sometimes I feel like a Pharisee..

With regards to eviction....

God performed the first eviction.... with Adam and Eve.....and they never moved back in.....

- Do your tenants know you are a believer? Yes, but more by my actions than my words.

- Would you ever witness to a non-believer who is a tenant? Yes, but I do not "push" religion. If a conversation presents an opportunity, yes.

- Does your church community know that you are a landlord? Yes

- Would you rent to believers from your church? No. My standard answer: I love you too much to evict, therefore I cannot rent to you. I value our relationship over money. I'll help you find another LL.

- Would you sue tenants who owed you rent if they were believers? Yes, but only after trying reconciliation one on one, and with two or more witnesses. Then court.

- Have you ever needed to evict a tenant who knew of your Christianity? Did this become an issue for your testimony? Yes, and NO. I have evicted only 3 tenants in 18 years. Two of the three are still local and treat me favorably.

I agree with so many of the points in the great answers above.

We do ask sometimes ask tenants about their lives and families if we're working on something at the property, but if they start asking about us, we redirect the conversation back to them and divulge very little about ourselves. They don't seem to notice when we do this. So we keep it professional but friendly. We have prayed for our tenants from time to time, and should probably do that more often,

- Do your tenants know you are a believer?

Some do - we have one couple whose parents work for a well-known ministry and we did tell them that our daughter also works overseas for another well-known ministry. But we still didn't give them any more information about ourselves. (They are believers in a local community -not ours -and perfect renters - we never hear from them, though we see their rent added to our bank account every month.)

Others seem to be aware as well - the other three families are all churchgoers - two are Catholic and one is Protestant, but I couldn't say for sure that any of the three are actually believers. They all seem to like us, but when one of the wives was having major knee surgery, I did tell the husband we would be praying for her, but got no response.

- Would you ever witness to a non-believer who is a tenant?

Yes, but not in some formulaic way. I would pray about an opening and see if the Spirit was leading me in that direction.

- Does your church community know that you are a landlord?

Yes. (I've always been a bit of a rebel and cringe at the word "church" as so many think of that as a building, though I know it's translated from the Greek and actually means God's people as a group...) But yes, the believers who are part of our lives know that we are landlords.

- Would you rent to believers from your church?

I would not rent to family, friends, or believers who are part of our lives. But to qualify that, it all comes down to being led by the Spirit, and I would break that rule if I was led by the Lord to do so (and only if I had that clear leading).

- Would you sue tenants who owed you rent if they were believers?

I would follow the same procedure as Gevans, with court as the last resort. (Many CLAIM to be believers, especially here in the South where we are transplanted Yankees, but that doesn't mean they truly are. To many here, it is a cultural thing, or a "church" thing, or a left-over idea of being "Christians" simply because they are "Americans"... so if a person was truly a believer, he or she would find a way to resolve their debt without much trouble. And we would KNOW they were true believers. With others that may be churchgoers, or may be just adept at speaking in "Christianese" without the evidence of true faith, we wouldn't hesitate to go straight to court. With REAL believers, I can't see that the last resort of court would ever be necessary.

- Have you ever needed to evict a tenant who knew of your Christianity? Did this become an issue for your testimony?

I am not that religious, but I am a believer. Faith and hard work will take you a long way in life.

I try not to mix religion or politics with work.

For those of you who are able to balance it out, that is awesome. I view it as a greater liability than asset. Do I know for a fact what religion is correct....and which ones are not?

I appreciate the advice from everyone. I think I have a good plan for moving forward. God bless all of my Christian friends out there who have given generously of their time to give thoughtful and detailed responses!

Via Ofiprop-

For a little humor: God evicted Adam and Eve, now *I* am evicting YOU!"

Probably won't gain me any points!

BRAD

Sisco,

Haha! A friend declares he is religiously atheist!

I wouldn't treat a Christian any differently, than a non Christian. My experience I have been burned many times by Christians and evicted them. But my view is we do not own anything anyway. ITS ALL GODS... we are just stewards.... so think about this when they take from the Landlord Christian or not, they are really taking from GOD, and they will answer for it some day. Be it in the life after or while they are here.

God will care of it, and my wife has said that to my tenants you are not screwing us your screwing God.

Not only do we not want to rent to anyone we know, we also don't want our tenants to know each other. Our four SFH's are all between 4 and 8 miles apart from each other. (In a recent online check, I did find that the children of two sets of tenants are facebook friends with each other, though they are in different school districts and the homes are about 7 miles apart. They probably have no idea that their parents have the same landlord.)

I'm an atheist and I do not want to share my lack of religion with tenants or potential tenants, nor do I want to know what my tenants believe or don't believe.

Occasionally I find out about tenants' beliefs or lack thereof, but I would really prefer not to know.

I used to be a renter, and I would have been extremely freaked out and resentful if someone had witnessed to me about their religion, or otherwise tried to suggest I ought to adopt their belief. In fact, I would have found it unprofessional and started shopping for a new landlord.

Fortunately, they all kept their beliefs or nonbeliefs to themselves.

I've noticed some applicants or their references like to tell me what good Christians the applicants are. Of course, I don't rent to people based on whether they're Christian, Jewish, atheist, or anything else. It's not just against the law, it's a bad idea to assume someone's a good or bad tenant based on their religion or lack thereof.

Interestingly, my boyfriend had tenants who were all "God bless you" and "God this" and "God that" and "would you like to join our church," and they were the ones who trashed the place, tried to hide that fact wherever possible, and dumped yard-waste from their newly purchased property in the back yard of my boyfriend's rental. It's easy to say one belongs to a religion; to act in accordance with one's faith may be another matter altogether....

There have been alot of good & insightful comments posted, and as a christian landlord of over 25 years I appreciate the conversation, and have had to struggle thru answering those questions for myself over the years.

One thing that has only been lightly touched on here is the fact that while we are in a business, we are in the housing business, and as such we fall under a bunch of housing laws that other types of business do not have. Religion is a protected class under the federal fair housing laws (as well as many state and local laws). Because of this, even asking about it does have the potential for opening yourself up to a discrimination claim - whether warranted or not.

I have gone thru an unwarranted discrimination claim filed with HUD (for something other than religion). Even though I was in the right, it became real clear, real quick that it is a different system to navigate through, weighted to the tenants advantage (maybe even rightfully so in some cases). Even if you are in the right, there is really no such thing as 'winning' in that scenario.

I believe that in this business, there are some areas of the current laws that really don't mesh very well with the calling of our faith to witness. I believe the best way to handle both is to not inquire, and let the way that i treat people & conduct my business do the talking.