average water usage?
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average water usage? (by and [VT]) Feb 24, 2011 2:52 PM
       average water usage? (by Reid [KS]) Feb 24, 2011 3:22 PM
       average water usage? (by Peter [NY]) Feb 24, 2011 5:00 PM
       average water usage? (by nhsailmaker [NH]) Feb 25, 2011 1:45 AM
       average water usage? (by S i d [MO]) Feb 25, 2011 4:35 AM
       average water usage? (by JT [CO]) Feb 25, 2011 6:13 AM
       average water usage? (by billy [MA]) Feb 25, 2011 6:23 AM
       average water usage? (by RR [WA]) Feb 25, 2011 8:42 AM
       average water usage? (by Kevin [MO]) Feb 25, 2011 10:37 AM
       average water usage? (by Josh [CA]) Feb 25, 2011 11:48 AM
       average water usage? (by Josh [CA]) Feb 25, 2011 11:50 AM
       average water usage? (by Josh [CA]) Feb 25, 2011 11:52 AM
       average water usage? (by Josh [CA]) Feb 25, 2011 11:53 AM
       average water usage? (by Josh [CA]) Feb 25, 2011 11:56 AM
       average water usage? (by Josh [CA]) Feb 25, 2011 11:59 AM
       average water usage? (by Josh [CA]) Feb 25, 2011 12:02 PM


average water usage? (by and [VT]) Posted on: Feb 24, 2011 2:52 PM
Message:

Anyone know the average water usage per family member per day or month?

I have a 3 fam all with own washers and my usage is about 46 thosand gallons a quarter. I do have water saver toilet and showers and I don't have any leaks. The problem is once I get above 36 thousand gallons the price goes through the roof. At 36 thousand gallons that averages to 4 thousands gallons per month per apt. Sound reasonable?

Each apt has about 2 adults and 2 kids. --68.187.xxx.xxx




average water usage? (by Reid [KS]) Posted on: Feb 24, 2011 3:22 PM
Message:

Yes usage doesn't sound out of line . considering they have washers. --99.38.xxx.xx




average water usage? (by Peter [NY]) Posted on: Feb 24, 2011 5:00 PM
Message:

I have seen it all over the place. Our water company said 5000 gallons per person per quarter. so no I don't think there out of line. --74.106.xx.xxx




average water usage? (by nhsailmaker [NH]) Posted on: Feb 25, 2011 1:45 AM
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GET NOW - Low flow shower heads and aerators on every faucet --75.68.xxx.xxx




average water usage? (by S i d [MO]) Posted on: Feb 25, 2011 4:35 AM
Message:

My family of 5 uses between 4 and 5 thousand per month. The usage in your unit sounds reasonable.

Can you sub-meter and bill back usage? I'm at the point where I'm about to start doing this. Getting tired of $100 water bills at a 2 person unit because when the toilet flapper sticks open they just ignore it unti they finish doing a dozen other things, then maybe go jiggle the handle. Luckily, I have a master shut off that controls 1 unit located. Total usage from utility company - usage by the metered unit (unit 1) = usage from unit 2. Month to month leases are due for a rude awakening. --70.129.xxx.xxx




average water usage? (by JT [CO]) Posted on: Feb 25, 2011 6:13 AM
Message:

This may sound like a dumb question butů does the water company allow you to have a higher amount of water usage, because there are three units rather than a single family home? --165.127.xxx.xx




average water usage? (by billy [MA]) Posted on: Feb 25, 2011 6:23 AM
Message:

i read 100 gallons a month is about average for 1 person. --173.14.xxx.xxx




average water usage? (by RR [WA]) Posted on: Feb 25, 2011 8:42 AM
Message:

I think billy means 100 gallons per *day*.

Billy, you really should drink more water !

--67.183.xxx.xx




average water usage? (by Kevin [MO]) Posted on: Feb 25, 2011 10:37 AM
Message:

In my metered building with random mix of tenants over last 5 years, I come up with 53 gallons per person per day... Haven't taken too many water saving measures except for leak sentry fill valves on toilets. --128.252.xx.xxx




average water usage? (by Josh [CA]) Posted on: Feb 25, 2011 11:48 AM
Message:

Here is a copy of a old thread on water use started by Jason:

Water saving war strategy (by Jason PA [PA]) Feb 12, 2010 10:43 PM

Water saving war strategy (by WL [CA]) Feb 12, 2010 11:02 PM

Water saving war strategy (by Reid [KS]) Feb 13, 2010 12:21 AM

Water saving war strategy (by Mike [MI]) Feb 13, 2010 3:36 AM

Water saving war strategy (by Hollis [MA]) Feb 13, 2010 3:42 AM

Water saving war strategy (by Mike [MI]) Feb 13, 2010 4:13 AM

Water saving war strategy (by Jason PA [PA]) Feb 13, 2010 5:13 AM

Water saving war strategy (by Josh [CA]) Feb 13, 2010 5:39 AM

Water saving war strategy (by Jason PA [PA]) Feb 13, 2010 6:02 AM

Water saving war strategy (by Jason PA [PA]) Feb 13, 2010 6:05 AM

Water saving war strategy (by billy [MA]) Feb 13, 2010 6:44 AM

Water saving war strategy (by Robert,Ontario,Canada [ON]) Feb 13, 2010 6:57 AM

Water saving war strategy (by WL [CA]) Feb 13, 2010 7:43 AM

Water saving war strategy (by Hollis [MA]) Feb 13, 2010 8:21 AM

Water saving war strategy (by RJ [WI]) Feb 13, 2010 11:40 AM

Water saving war strategy (by Hollis [MA]) Feb 13, 2010 11:58 AM

Water saving war strategy (by RJ [WI]) Feb 13, 2010 12:53 PM

Water saving war strategy (by Hollis [MA]) Feb 13, 2010 1:14 PM

Water saving war strategy (by RJ [WI]) Feb 13, 2010 2:18 PM

Water saving war strategy (by Jason PA [PA]) Feb 13, 2010 2:54 PM

Water saving war strategy (by Chris [CA]) Feb 13, 2010 5:29 PM

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Water saving war strategy (by Jason PA [PA]) Posted on: Feb 12, 2010 10:43 PM

Message:

Thanks to all here that have given me some great input on saving some serious $$ with water conservation. I figured I would share what I have researched and done so far. I am implementing drastic changes in particular because our local city already has very high water sewer controlled rates and they are probably going up 40% very soon so the city can pay off it massive debt. Ok now I am getting serious about these issues and am going to get a strangelhold on these costs if I can. I am implementing major water saving changes at about 20 units for starters.

I have done alot of work but have not spent a lot of money for what are seeming to be some huge cashflow results. I figured I would share these findings so far with you.

average person in US uses 100 to 130 gallons per day

average person 30% of their water as hot water

If you reduce water pressure by 50% then you cut water flow (GPM) about 33%

Here are some BALLPARK numbers I came up with

From a small informal survey I did from a few local landlords, I noted that 1 to 2 bedroom apartments average 3 to 5,000 gallons of water a month, and 3 to 4 bedroom homes 5 to 8,000 gallons per month. And in the city at 1 cent per gallon. About 30% of that is hot water. My tenants and the ones other local landlords had use much less than 100 to 130 gallons a day I read off.

1 gallon of hot water costs 4 to 7 cents a gallon, and costs just under a penny a gallon for cold water (this is based on harrisburg city rates also including sewer utilization which is based on water usage)

Here is what I have done so far and also a few things that I should have done within a few weeks

Insulated every hot water pipe I can reach

Tamper proof showerheads (30% less flow and this go around they are tamperproof)

1 gpm low flow aerators everywhere and if it cuts pressure too much then try a 1.5 gpm. These are tamperproof and require a special tool as well.

Installing water regulator in main and cutting building main pressure somewhat

Preheat water tank piped before water heater. This is just a large tank that takes the water which is ground temperature coming into the building about 52 degrees and holds it in the very hot boiler room with placement near hottest part of the room. Depending on how long the water sits in the tank It might take 52 degree incoming water and with no energy to get 15 to 30 degrees above the 52 degrees, saving a considerable amount of fuel.

Before next heat season probably will replace water heater with a new technology called heat pump water heater. This technology alone might cut gas usage by 60 to 80% on it's own.

For $1.23 apiece I am installing water saver bags which can cut water usage from toilet use by up to 50%. I am skeptical about this as I will reduce the bag volume or even eliminate it if I start getting alot of toilet back ups due to not enough water.

replace more flappers and continue upgrading all old toilet parts to fluidmaster

Continue grinding bad seats and replacing with dripstop washers where I can.

Here is a website that I found that sells quite unique water saving devices that are designed to be tamperproof and still affordable.

I figured I would share this as I want to document this for my own records anyway. My 12 unit alone averaged 50,000 gallons a month and has had many runaway bills hit 60 to 100k gallons a month. Even before I implemented these strategies I had it down to 30 to 35000 a month with better preventive leak maintenance as well. The goal is to get the average down to 20,000 gallons a month in a property that on average has about 20 people living there. The fuel costs for hot water I hope to shrink alot as well.

--98.111.113.245

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Water saving war strategy (by WL [CA]) Posted on: Feb 12, 2010 11:02 PM

Message:

I was able, via advanced water bill reduction strategies and brainstorming, to reduce my water bill to zero. Method: go to the San Diego City Water Department, pay for two additional water meters, then separate the water lines for my triplex and send each tenant the bill for their own usage. Water and sewer bill went from $350 average per bill to $0 - I recommend it to you! --68.7.239.154

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Water saving war strategy (by Reid [KS]) Posted on: Feb 13, 2010 12:21 AM

Message:

Jason do you have any Kids or grand kids ? This project of yours would make a super science fair project if you let them work with you on this so they could then write it up as their work. It's got everything, water conservation, physics, mechanics , you name it. --70.244.102.15

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Water saving war strategy (by Mike [MI]) Posted on: Feb 13, 2010 3:36 AM

Message:

Don't forget gfxtechnology for shower drain water. A big payback with multi units.

Would recycling water eve catch on? Some municipalities down south plumb grey water for city use. Does it make sense to anyone to dispose of grey water to waste treatment plant then pump it back? It would be far simpler to recycle at home then dump excess to drain or irrigation. --208.100.200.129

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--71.80.xxx.xxx




average water usage? (by Josh [CA]) Posted on: Feb 25, 2011 11:50 AM
Message:

Posting in sections. Spam bot giving me grief.

Water saving war strategy (by Hollis [MA]) Posted on: Feb 13, 2010 3:42 AM

Message:

Good for you! You are on your way to some good $avings. I have done every thing that you have done except the bag in the tank,..I did that some years ago and in most of the toilets we had,(a hodge podge of different ones)..I found that they had to flush them twice so counter productive.

Maybe in your toilets it might be different.

I still might think about adding (if you have nat gas HW just a regular Hw heater after that temper tank set to "warm" before it goes to the main heater that brings it up to the temp you want.. I'm not sure why in Physics it should make such a difference but it does. Fairly cheap do do,..

Now With 20 units perhaps it won't work as well as my biggest one that I have used this (10 units)But I find that it has an amazingly LOW cost to provide HW to those units,..despite the very long showers that these people take when someone else pays for Hot water! I find if I double my HW costs its WAY lower than yours. Even when I DIDN"T do all the water saving devices.

But I wonder then,.what if you have 2 in line? (two set to warm one feeding to the other before it goes into the main heater.)

Still fairly cheap if done at same time. They don't have to be super insulated as I would imagine that water doesn't sit too long in 20 units demands HW,..

I would say to experiment a bit,..tank #1 slightly warm,..#2 warmer,..going into your current hot water heater.

--71.161.135.205

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Water saving war strategy (by Mike [MI]) Posted on: Feb 13, 2010 4:13 AM

Message:

Some of the multi-units should be looking at Capstone generators. These are expensive but if you have natural gas and enough load a very good low maintenance choice (I'm told). They produce same amount of heat and electric with half the energy. This is the same technology the utility companies use, except you will be much more efficient using the heat output. The smallest 30kw generator about $20+k. Hotels use them for heating, power, and absorption A.C. Now that you can sell power on grid, makes it easier to manage. --208.100.200.129

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Water saving war strategy (by Jason PA [PA]) Posted on: Feb 13, 2010 5:13 AM

Message:

Hollis, I think one of the reasons it WAS so expensive for me to heat water was that after the water heater the hot water supply pipe was about 100 feet of non insulated 1" running through cold unheated rooms before it went to the units. Also I am still on the 8.5 ccf overpriced gas rate, for now.

I shold get the kids involved for a science project. --98.111.113.245

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Water saving war strategy (by Josh [CA]) Posted on: Feb 13, 2010 5:39 AM

Message:

Do the faucet airators save a lot of water?

WL (CA) what was the cost per meter?

The 10 unit monthly bill is $300+ but this includes Gas, Sewer, and refuse. So $100 a month on water approx. $100 on gas and $100 on refuse as general figures. So $10 bucks per month per tenant. Sounds like the meters wouldn't be cost friendly.

--24.176.208.38

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--71.80.xxx.xxx




average water usage? (by Josh [CA]) Posted on: Feb 25, 2011 11:52 AM
Message:

Water saving war strategy (by Jason PA [PA]) Posted on: Feb 13, 2010 6:02 AM

Message:

With faucet aerators that website even sells those tamper proof! It is easy to calculate your GPM flow on a fixture, and then you can buy tamperproof aerators cheaply that limit the GPM flow to between 1/2 gallon a minute up to 1.5 gpm, I did 1 gpm.

I am sure it would save $$, but your costs are already well under control, but why not save some more $$ if you can without tenants sacrificing too much water pressure. --98.111.113.245

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Water saving war strategy (by Jason PA [PA]) Posted on: Feb 13, 2010 6:05 AM

Message:

And another thought, I thought long and hard about putting in a 98 percent tankless water heater, however unlimited hot water may not be a good thing. --98.111.113.245

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Water saving war strategy (by billy [MA]) Posted on: Feb 13, 2010 6:44 AM

Message:

thanks for sharinmg jason.very interesting. --208.58.2.83

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Water saving war strategy (by Robert,Ontario,Canada [ON]) Posted on: Feb 13, 2010 6:57 AM

Message:

Using low flush toilets will save a considerable amount of water. In the apartment buildings converting out the washer faucets to washerless which need a lot less maintenance which will leak less often. A low flush toilet will cost around $100.00 but over time will save water. The only washer type faucets remain are those in the bathtubs. When ever a bathroom is renovated the washer faucets are replaced with washerless faucets. All the other faucets are washerless as the bathroom basin faucet and kitchen faucet were all replaced with washerless. One apartment building has all the faucets completely washerless. Delta has a ultra low flow shower head which is installed when a tenant moves out. Pressure flush type of toilets flush much better then a gravity flush where the waste is forced down. Heating the hot water in the apartment buildings is done by a high efficiency gas boiler which heats the indirect hot water tank. Have only commercial front load washing machines which use a small amount of hot water and 40 per cent less water per wash load. Toilets on average use 45 per cent of the water consumption. Using 6 liters per flush is a lot better then using 20 to 25 liters per flush. Imperial gallons are no longer used so the low flush toilet would use 1.25 imperial gallons per flush. --216.110.224.48

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--71.80.xxx.xxx




average water usage? (by Josh [CA]) Posted on: Feb 25, 2011 11:53 AM
Message:

Water saving war strategy (by WL [CA]) Posted on: Feb 13, 2010 7:43 AM

Message:

Attn: Josh. Sounds like you have a central water heater; my units already had separate gas water heaters which made it a lot simpler to separate the lines. SD charged me $3000 per meter with an install at the property line - you would have to pay for separate water heaters also. For a expert breakdown of the benefits of separate water meters, google the article from the AZ Apartment Association in 2008: "Phoenix Small Multi-Family: Where the Value Is Hidden" In a nutshell, separate water meters added $40K in added property value for a 4plex. If you have a 10plex that would equal $100k in added value. FYI --76.216.248.242

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Water saving war strategy (by Hollis [MA]) Posted on: Feb 13, 2010 8:21 AM

Message:

Jason the pipe insulation should definitely help. I hope you got to most of it,..but your HW costs still seems way out of line from your previous post.

Like Josh,..I think my monthly HW per tenant runs about 10 per month,..as I said, they run 20 min plus showers (I can hear it when In working there) and no one runs out of hotwater. (I've asked)

Not sure how big your units are,..maybe big families? Idunno,..I'm guessing you should be saving about 1/2 your water bill with what you are doing.

I still think a preheat waterheater (besides the temper tank) would be a good idea. I'm thinking that with 20 units,..that temper tank can't hold enough water long enough to make a great heat exchange fast enough to not make that big heater really huff. BTW how big is your main water heater (gal)? --71.161.135.205

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Water saving war strategy (by RJ [WI]) Posted on: Feb 13, 2010 11:40 AM

Message:

Josh, just the cost of a meter is cheap, about $70 or so. It will depend on your state if you can install them yourself and the billing rules you must follow. Check out watermeters dot com.

Hollis, the only way a water heater before the main water heater can save any BTUs is if the first one is a higher efficiency water heater than the main one. If thats the case, you should be using the first one (the higher efficiency one) to do as much work as it can to give you the greatest savings. If both water heaters are the same efficiency then its no savings at all, a wash, because of the old rule that a BTU is a BTU is a BTU.

Jason, lots of ideas and data, you should blog it so its easier to reference. Posts disapear so quickly here. --71.98.16.22

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Water saving war strategy (by Hollis [MA]) Posted on: Feb 13, 2010 11:58 AM

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RJ,..I would have thought that but I think something else is going on,..maybe trying to get the flow of,.. at times, a lot of people using water at the same time and how it has to heat to make that up. Yea I would think efficiency is efficiency but I can't argue with the gas bill (My two tanks replaced a larger one)

At my own house with only the two of us,with one of the more efficient water heaters ..its about 40% of the ten unit unit with people that do those super long showers and leave the HW running doing dishes and brushing their teeth etc,..

Again, I'm surprised how well my two tank system works (in of which several plumbers said it wouldn't)

And this time of year,..its drawing in city water that I'm pretty sure is a lot colder than Josh's to heat up.

--71.161.135.205

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--71.80.xxx.xxx




average water usage? (by Josh [CA]) Posted on: Feb 25, 2011 11:56 AM
Message:

Water saving war strategy (by RJ [WI]) Posted on: Feb 13, 2010 12:53 PM

Message:

Hollis, yes, something else has to be going on because that BTU rule dont bend. If I had to guess, its an efficiency issue. Your old water heater was likely not very efficient and you are seeing a saving just from more efficient water heating. You would be saving even more if you had the same efficiency tank in a larger size, just big tanks cost big money and you probably saved alot by buying 2 smaller tanks than one large one.

It cant be the heat up part either, you mentioned flow which I take to mean when a tank is getting drawn down due to use and its trying to catch back up. The reason its not that is because a tank is actually MORE efficient with colder water coming in the tank than warmer water. Whenever you are dealing with heating (or cooling too) the greatest efficiency is when there is a higher differential of temperure, its easier and faster for the 2 different temps to get closer to the same temp. Water coming at 52 degrees is more efficient at getting warmed up to the set point of 110 than when a water heater is just doing a little warm up of the tank after it has set a while and is at say 100 degrees and has to go up to 110 degrees. Even still though, a BTU is a BTU is a BTU so that efficiency is not going to make a huge difference but its there.

You also have to remember, tank heaters are like a light switch, either on (actively heating) or off (not heating, just holding the water). Because of that, there is no way to just gently heat the water in the first tank and then finish heating the water in the next tank. Electric water heaters have 2 elements in them so they can heat slow and faster but there is no real increase in efficiency from that, its just for the recovery rate. It does let you keep a smaller storage tank than the larger one that would be needed so there is some savings from standing heat loss.

If you are seeing a saving in your gas bill, its likely from efficiency savings. You should bypass your first tank to see if it can keep up with the demand of your units. If it cant, its undersized and should be larger. If you really need that second tank just to keep up, you should have had a larger one put in because all things being equal, 2 small tanks are less efficient than a single larger one that is twice the size. People do it though because its cheaper to add a second (or just use 2) 40 gallon tank ahead of the other tank because the 40 gallon tank only costs $300 but a new 250 gallon tank might run $4000-5000. You can be rest assured though that its impossible to save energy on a 2 tank system compared to a single tank system given the same efficiency rating. That's where the BTU is a BTU is a BTU thing comes in. --71.98.16.22

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--71.80.xxx.xxx




average water usage? (by Josh [CA]) Posted on: Feb 25, 2011 11:59 AM
Message:

Water saving war strategy (by Hollis [MA]) Posted on: Feb 13, 2010 1:14 PM

Message:

RJ,..I have to take the wife to dinner and a movie (early Valentines day,..can't do it tomorrow )and I'm going to be late if i take much time, but yes if someone had posed this to me I think I would have used the same/similar arguments as you are making.

the "old" unit was a Bradford White only a few years old, the heat exchanger was clean and the flame was looking good (blue) but I can't tell you what the efficiency was, I have to guess that it was in the ballpark,

it was backed into by a Bobcat in expanding the basement,..we joined the two as a quick fix and didn't get around to changing it as there were only a few people in the building and it was satisfying all at that time. As more came in,..it seemed to work.

What i can't argue with is the incredibility low bills (from the two buildings we have done this with which we pay for the HW)

I dunno,..it seems to work. The other building that we changed had higher gas costs.

Maybe there is,...but I haven't seen THAT much difference in efficiencies in gas HW heaters offered around here all things (draft, flame etc being close,...

Gotta go or big trouble,.... --71.161.135.205

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Water saving war strategy (by RJ [WI]) Posted on: Feb 13, 2010 2:18 PM

Message:

I cant argue the savings either and you got bills to prove them but whats missing is the effiency of the old Bradford White. That HAS to be the missing link because you simply cant create BTUs out of thin air or in this case simply by using 2 tanks instead of 1. That dont just bend the laws of physics, it shatters them and then stomps them into the ground just for good measure.

Think of it this way, if a 2 tank method worked, it would work better with 3 tanks and even better yet with 4 tanks and on and on right up to the point of diminishing returns. If it worked, there are enough people throwing money at the energy problem like drunken sailors to do it and test it. Instead of Ed Begley and Jay Leno talking about the new highly effiecent Marathon water heater, they would be talking about the 2 heaters in line that work so much better.

Keep in mind, Im not saying you are not saving money now compaired to before, Im just saying its not possible to attribute it to the use of 2 tanks. Im sure you did save money though with 2 small tanks over one large one, water heaters are one of those things that as tank size goes up past 50 gallons, the price per gallon skyrockets.

I gotta go too, have fun at dinner. I will try to remember to check back in late Sunday or Monday, Im going to go spend the weekend at the farm. --71.98.16.22

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--71.80.xxx.xxx




average water usage? (by Josh [CA]) Posted on: Feb 25, 2011 12:02 PM
Message:

Water saving war strategy (by Jason PA [PA]) Posted on: Feb 13, 2010 2:54 PM

Message:

I agree I think the cost to heat hot water should be much lower. I have a 120 foot 1" copper pipe running out of the hw heater through unheated areas that is uninsulated. I calculate that is about 4 gallons of water that was cooling off.

Another big issue with me, I never locked in rates with competitive gas bids, so I pay 8.5 instead of 5.5 that some people locked into.

I am having a hard time finding a suitable tank to make into a temper tank.

--98.111.113.245 --71.80.xxx.xxx





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